TRAIL CAM BAN UPDATE 3/17/21

[Desertguide]

4 minutes ago, plang00 said:

The best hunting guides in the business........Dads & Grandpas

Amen to that!!!

[1uofacat]

2 hours ago, Desertguide said:

Freedom of information act. We a citizens have every right to know where that money goes. It takes a little effort but you can file a Freedom of Information act request and they HAVE to show you where it goes. Did you know it's the same with G&F trailcams? You can do the same thing and be able to see every picture they get on a specific trailcam. It's public record and you have the right to see it. 

FOIA is for Federal requests whereas this falls under state law.  That said, AZ has something similar, but not nearly as stringent as FOIA laws.  IMO, after looking into it recently, I believe it's easier for AZ State Agencies to get away with not divulging info than at the Federal level. 

[Desertguide]

23 minutes ago, 1uofacat said:

FOIA is for Federal requests whereas this falls under state law.  That said, AZ has something similar, but not nearly as stringent as FOIA laws.  IMO, after looking into it recently, I believe it's easier for AZ State Agencies to get away with not divulging info than at the Federal level. 

Interesting. I've never personally filed one but the executive director of one of the state critter groups told me he has used it and had good results. Maybe he was talking about the one the state has. 

[AZBIG10]

37 minutes ago, 1uofacat said:

FOIA is for Federal requests whereas this falls under state law.  That said, AZ has something similar, but not nearly as stringent as FOIA laws.  IMO, after looking into it recently, I believe it's easier for AZ State Agencies to get away with not divulging info than at the Federal level. 

Can I see aerial survey information?

[AZBIG10]

38 minutes ago, 1uofacat said:

FOIA is for Federal requests whereas this falls under state law.  That said, AZ has something similar, but not nearly as stringent as FOIA laws.  IMO, after looking into it recently, I believe it's easier for AZ State Agencies to get away with not divulging info than at the Federal level. 

Can I see aerial survey information?

[HuntHarder]

Desert guide, what is the name of your guiding outfit?

[Desertguide]

20 minutes ago, HuntHarder said:

Desert guide, what is the name of your guiding outfit?

I'm proud to say that I work for Schulz Outfitters.

[HuntHarder]

Nice!  Your responses on this thread are solid!  You sound like a real stand up guy with some common sense.  I appreciate that after hearing other guides on here seem so arrogant and ignorant.  

[Desertguide]

4 minutes ago, HuntHarder said:

Nice!  Your responses on this thread are solid!  You sound like a real stand up guy with some common sense.  I appreciate that after hearing other guides on here seem so arrogant and ignorant.  

Wow man, I truly appreciate that. I just try to treat guys the way I want to be treated. Thank you

[stillatmaxpoints]

Since i was asked this question by the person that started this topic, i will reply.

Again most all of the developed waters(not G&F wildlife waters)are private property of the rancher that has the grazing rights in that area. On AZ trust lands the rancher owns all of the improvements including the road to the improvement. On public land forest service or blm, the ranchers owns the water improvement, not the water but the improvement to contain the water if the rancher developed that improvement.

Actually it is trespassing to put a trail camera on the improvement without permission. When cattle come in to drink, and sometime get there salt and or supplement there, they will tend to loaf around the water for a couple of hours before heading back out to graze, and not all cattle come to water at the same time. Depending on the ranch and the cattle, people showing up in vehicles and putting up trail cameras or checking them will tend make cattle leave slowly or in a hurry depending on the ranch and cattle, a lot of places cattle only see the rancher on a horse, people on foot tend to scare them and they leave, disruptions on a continual basis effects how livestock do, be it weight gain, not getting enough water etc. Ranching and livestock is a complicated business, not a sport, recreation or hobby for 99.9% of all ranchers. most of the waters that ranchers have put in in the last 150 years is responsible for the wildlife population increase in most the state of Arizona. Read the book, Man and Wildlife in Arizona the american exploration period 1824-1865, G&F used to sell this book in there offices, not sure now. This is why on the Big Bo cattle have the right of way.

Myself i would like to see trail cameras go away. It has gotten out of hand, nothing wrong with the way we hunted 35 years ago without trail cameras. technology has advanced many things hunters use to scout and or hunt, but you have to be physically there on the ground to use them, not so with trail cameras or flying. gone are the days when you could fine a unique animal that no one else possibly has not seen in a unit, now he likely is on someones trail camera. hunting is more interesting without the cameras. Each hunter is responsible for his or her hunting ethics.

A few years back there was a business(not sure if they are still in business)that had a website that hunters could pay a fee and join, for the fee you gave them say your deer hunt unit that you had drawn, they would place trail cameras in your unit and send you pictures of the deer in the unit and where in the unit the picture was taken. Human hunter instincts are slowly going away which possibly could lead to the end of hunting in the long run.

Just my opinion, but if this group that has spent the money to hire a attorney to write a letter to the Governor and possibly file a lawsuit or whatever, i would bet there motives for doing it is not because they like to just see pictures of wildlife, or they want to show there kids the pictures to get them interested in hunting. Again hunting instincts are slowly disappearing 

[Desertguide]

44 minutes ago, stillatmaxpoints said:

Since i was asked this question by the person that started this topic, i will reply.

Again most all of the developed waters(not G&F wildlife waters)are private property of the rancher that has the grazing rights in that area. On AZ trust lands the rancher owns all of the improvements including the road to the improvement. On public land forest service or blm, the ranchers owns the water improvement, not the water but the improvement to contain the water if the rancher developed that improvement.

Actually it is trespassing to put a trail camera on the improvement without permission. When cattle come in to drink, and sometime get there salt and or supplement there, they will tend to loaf around the water for a couple of hours before heading back out to graze, and not all cattle come to water at the same time. Depending on the ranch and the cattle, people showing up in vehicles and putting up trail cameras or checking them will tend make cattle leave slowly or in a hurry depending on the ranch and cattle, a lot of places cattle only see the rancher on a horse, people on foot tend to scare them and they leave, disruptions on a continual basis effects how livestock do, be it weight gain, not getting enough water etc. Ranching and livestock is a complicated business, not a sport, recreation or hobby for 99.9% of all ranchers. most of the waters that ranchers have put in in the last 150 years is responsible for the wildlife population increase in most the state of Arizona. Read the book, Man and Wildlife in Arizona the american exploration period 1824-1865, G&F used to sell this book in there offices, not sure now. This is why on the Big Bo cattle have the right of way.

Myself i would like to see trail cameras go away. It has gotten out of hand, nothing wrong with the way we hunted 35 years ago without trail cameras. technology has advanced many things hunters use to scout and or hunt, but you have to be physically there on the ground to use them, not so with trail cameras or flying. gone are the days when you could fine a unique animal that no one else possibly has not seen in a unit, now he likely is on someones trail camera. hunting is more interesting without the cameras. Each hunter is responsible for his or her hunting ethics.

A few years back there was a business(not sure if they are still in business)that had a website that hunters could pay a fee and join, for the fee you gave them say your deer hunt unit that you had drawn, they would place trail cameras in your unit and send you pictures of the deer in the unit and where in the unit the picture was taken. Human hunter instincts are slowly going away which possibly could lead to the end of hunting in the long run.

Just my opinion, but if this group that has spent the money to hire a attorney to write a letter to the Governor and possibly file a lawsuit or whatever, i would bet there motives for doing it is not because they like to just see pictures of wildlife, or they want to show there kids the pictures to get them interested in hunting. Again hunting instincts are slowly disappearing 

The rancher might own the improvement tself, be it tank, trough or fencing around the improvement but the rancher doesn't own the trees nearby, not if it's state trust or public land. It's in no way trespassing to place a camera on a tree pointed at an improvement. I truly appreciate and respect everything ranchers have done in this state but we are meant share the land and its resources. Where I hunt I rarely see ranchers on horseback, they're usually in trucks or on quads. If they're on horseback, they're almost always gathering cattle. I've never ever had a bad experience with a rancher. I stop and talk to every rancher I get the opportunity to and I've never once had one ask anything more than for me to keep gates closed and not park on their water pipes. I've never once had one complain to me about trail cameras. 

[HuntHarder]

IMO, this has never been about guides vs. hunters. Some guides, with bad intentions, will try to scare you into thinking that, but it's not the case.   I think it is more about doing something, anything, to try and conserve our resource.  Technology is constantly evolving and in order to keep our numbers where they need to be or keep hunting what it used to be, limitations need to happen.  I do not think anyone would argue that there have been numerous advances in technology that has contributed to more animals being taken or wounded.  Long range guns, long range bows, rangefinder, camo, gps, 15's, SxS's, quads, the list is endless.  Trail cameras fall on that list too.  Something needs to happen or hunting is going to continue on it's current course.  The art of hunting is lost in many people.  I see no problem with giving up my trail cameras, as a small concession, to start letting the animals get a little leg up on us.  The reason I do not mind trail cameras leaving is simply, I have seen how much they can benefit me and others.  We literally hunt stands and or blinds because of what is showing up on cameras.  For anyone who runs cameras to disagree with that statement, they are not being honest with themselves.  With trail cameras, you do not even need to be in the woods to gather very useful information for your upcoming hunt.  heck, you can be hunting 10 miles away and at night go check a camera on the other side of the unit and then change your plans for the next day.  One might say that a hunter can get just as much or more info from a trail camera than they could get from flying in an airplane or parachute plane.    We can debate for days on which new technology has had the biggest impact, but that really comes down to opinion unless 5 or 10 year studies are conducted.  

The fact that some guys are willing to give up nothing and continue to watch hunting get shittier and shittier each year, boggles my mind.  I would happily give up other new advances if it means better hunting down the road or less conflicts in the field.  The fear mongers and the hardcore "I give nothing up" guys are the biggest threat.  It is only a matter of time before someone comes out with another technological advance that makes hunting even easier.  At some point, we need to not be so self centered and look at the big picture.  Why they chose Game cameras is a decision they made.  I simply agree that they need to limit them or completely ban them.  AGFD should get the forest service and BLM on board and make this happen.  Again, just my opinion.  At any rate, I ask all to contact your commissioner and let them know your feelings on this issue.  Do not let me or a loud mouth, arrogant guide, tell you how to think.  

https://www.azgfd.com/agency/commission/members/contact-commissioner3/

https://www.azgfd.com/agency/commission/members/contact-commissioner/

https://www.azgfd.com/agency/commission/members/contact-commissioner4

https://www.azgfd.com/agency/commission/members/contact-commissioner1/

https://www.azgfd.com/agency/commission/members/contact-commissioner2/

[AZ11]

I can't wait until they ban trail cams. Huntharder you made solid points.

[Desertguide]

12 minutes ago, HuntHarder said:

IMO, this has never been about guides vs. hunters. Some guides, with bad intentions, will try to scare you into thinking that, but it's not the case.   I think it is more about doing something, anything, to try and conserve our resource.  Technology is constantly evolving and in order to keep our numbers where they need to be or keep hunting what it used to be, limitations need to happen.  I do not think anyone would argue that there have been numerous advances in technology that has contributed to more animals being taken or wounded.  Long range guns, long range bows, rangefinder, camo, gps, 15's, SxS's, quads, the list is endless.  Trail cameras fall on that list too.  Something needs to happen or hunting is going to continue on it's current course.  The art of hunting is lost in many people.  I see no problem with giving up my trail cameras, as a small concession, to start letting the animals get a little leg up on us.  The reason I do not mind trail cameras leaving is simply, I have seen how much they can benefit me and others.  We literally hunt stands and or blinds because of what is showing up on cameras.  For anyone who runs cameras to disagree with that statement, they are not being honest with themselves.  With trail cameras, you do not even need to be in the woods to gather very useful information for your upcoming hunt.  heck, you can be hunting 10 miles away and at night go check a camera on the other side of the unit and then change your plans for the next day.  One might say that a hunter can get just as much or more info from a trail camera than they could get from flying in an airplane or parachute plane.    We can debate for days on what new technology has had the biggest impact, but that really comes down to opinion unless 5 or 10 year studies are conducted.  

The fact that some guys are willing to give up nothing and continue to watch hunting as a whole get shittier and shittier each year boggles my mind.  I would happily give up other new advances if it means better hunting down the road or less conflicts in the field.  The fear mongers and the hardcore "I give nothing up" guys are the biggest threat.  It is only a matter of time before someone comes out with another technological advance that makes hunting even easier.  At some point, we need to not be so self centered and look at the big picture.  Why they chose Game cameras is a decision they made.  I simply agree that they need to limit them or completely ban them.  AGFD should get the forest service and BLM on board and make this happen.  Again, just my opinion.  At any rate, I ask all to at least contact your commissioner and let them know your feelings on this issue.  Do not let me or a loud mouth, arrogant guide, tell you how to think.  

Well put. You've actually caused me to look at things a little differently. Very insightful.

 

I still don't like the departments approach but that's only one portion of the issues I have with them right now. 

 

Thanks for taking the time to write that. You did a great service to those who are for the new rule. 

[SirRoyal]

3 hours ago, Desertguide said:

Wow man, I truly appreciate that. I just try to treat guys the way I want to be treated. Thank you

Just dont post something they dont like! Treat them like pet rattlesnakes because one day they will bite you ,  Agree with them , drink their kool aid. Maybe you only get bit once or twice. See your a guide and all guides on here I mean the ones that used to be here, are guilty by association and your guilty no matter what.🤠P.S. Oh make sure you sell something on here its known for Classified ads.