TRAIL CAM BAN UPDATE 3/17/21

[HuntHarder]

Primitive ML seasons would be a great next step. 

[Riesop]

I'm all for a ban.  Fair chase is fair chase.  Having 20 cameras to do your work for you just doesn't seem right, gotta hunt hard and earn it, but that's just my opinion.

[stanley]

On 4/15/2021 at 5:08 PM, Heat said:

Just so you guys know when you are making donations and signing up for Clubs here in AZ, the Arizona Deer Association wrote a letter to the Commission supporting the Trail Camera Ban. I would love to know if they polled the membership or voted as a Board of Directors or what.

Nick, this point is VERY valid and resonated with me. 

Several years ago I was very actively involved with the ADA (Youth Chair, setting-up and running the youth camps & functions, etc.).  Though the club in general had positive intentions and did a lot of good, I ended-up being a little disgruntled and faded out of active participation based on this type of theme.  There were a couple of occasions where certain board members took a position on various topics 'on behalf of the club' that appeared to me to be a bit controversial and shaky.   There was one particular time when there was an article written by a well known board member in the regular ADA magazine, and it included fairly scathing commentary regarding one of the other clubs in the state.  At the next board meeting I brought it up and asked if that was the position of the club, or just an editorial from the one board member, and my concern was basically brushed-off.

Bottom line is, if your point regarding folks knowing where their donation dollars go and what position they are 'supporting' with those dollars is spot on!!!   Donors beware!

[Desertguide]

20 hours ago, 654321 said:

They seem to be able to enforce the unenforceable bait ban just fine.

Do they? I see guys buying Deer Co Cain and other "bait" all the time. They aren't enforcing anything. When was the last time you heard of a guy in AZ getting busted for baiting? 

[Desertguide]

17 hours ago, AZtroutman said:

95% of the problem is waterholes. So they will achieve their goal. Perfect.

No they won't. Guys will still run cameras. How are they going to prove if a guy killed a deer because of a picture? Are they going to pull you over, look at the pics on your phone and follow you to make sure you don't kill a deer you have a picture of? What if I run cameras for legal reasons, get a picture of a buck then draw a tag the following year and kill the buck? What if I get a picture of a deer this Dec and then go kill it in Jan after the ban takes effect? It's going to take guys all of 2 minutes to figure out its unenforceable and they'll have cameras back out there. The whole thing is retarded. 

[dusty]

55 minutes ago, stanley said:

Nick, this point is VERY valid and resonated with me. 

Several years ago I was very actively involved with the ADA (Youth Chair, setting-up and running the youth camps & functions, etc.).  Though the club in general had positive intentions and did a lot of good, I ended-up being a little disgruntled and faded out of active participation based on this type of theme.  There were a couple of occasions where certain board members took a position on various topics 'on behalf of the club' that appeared to me to be a bit controversial and shaky.   There was one particular time when there was an article written by a well known board member in the regular ADA magazine, and it included fairly scathing commentary regarding one of the other clubs in the state.  At the next board meeting I brought it up and asked if that was the position of the club, or just an editorial from the one board member, and my concern was basically brushed-off.

Bottom line is, if your point regarding folks knowing where their donation dollars go and what position they are 'supporting' with those dollars is spot on!!!   Donors beware!

When they supported the last tag grab effort I wondered if the members were aware. That was it for me.

[AZtroutman]

19 minutes ago, Desertguide said:

No they won't. Guys will still run cameras. How are they going to prove if a guy killed a deer because of a picture? Are they going to pull you over, look at the pics on your phone and follow you to make sure you don't kill a deer you have a picture of? What if I run cameras for legal reasons, get a picture of a buck then draw a tag the following year and kill the buck? What if I get a picture of a deer this Dec and then go kill it in Jan after the ban takes effect? It's going to take guys all of 2 minutes to figure out its unenforceable and they'll have cameras back out there. The whole thing is retarded. 

The beauty will be that it will be enforced by hunters in the field, leaving basically everyone no choice but to stop using cameras. Right or wrong there will be plenty of bashed in cameras.

[knothead]

25 minutes ago, Desertguide said:

Do they? I see guys buying Deer Co Cain and other "bait" all the time. They aren't enforcing anything. When was the last time you heard of a guy in AZ getting busted for baiting? 

Reading yesterday's meeting agenda I noticed this guy had to stand before commission because he was busted for baiting:

Ralph W. Dubois 2021-0022 Knowingly Take Deer Over Edible Substances (3 Counts). Possess/Transport Unlawfully Taken Deer.

[HuntHarder]

Would anyone agree that just about every game law is very hard to enforce?  The main reason is the lack of officers available to enforce the laws on the books.  This is where your ethics come into play.  In general, good people choose to follow the laws on the books, whether they 100% agree with them or not.  My bow sight is not legal in a few states that I hunt, I choose to use a different sight when I hunt in those states.  I have NEVER seen a warden, so I know that chances of me getting caught with my illegal sight there are very minimal, but they have laws and I choose to follow them.  Same goes for my ML in other states, not all states allow scopes or some ignition systems.  The whole unenforceable, so most will not follow the law is pure BS in my opinion.  

[Desertguide]

59 minutes ago, AZtroutman said:

The beauty will be that it will be enforced by hunters in the field, leaving basically everyone no choice but to stop using cameras. Right or wrong there will be plenty of bashed in cameras.

And what are these "hunters" going to tell game and fish? That someone hung a camera? Not illegal. It wouldn't be illegal until a guy used a picture to kill an animal. Go ahead and try proving that. In the meantime you have a bunch of hunters with guns thinking it's their job to enforce laws. Brilliant

[elkaholic]

Troutman. Ok laws in effect, a partial ban of some kind.

You see a guy checking a camera.

Like stated above no law against having a camera . If you decide to interfere,  what can you do .

Wait hes gone and then  brake   , , ,damage  camera etc.  Now who's braking the law.

Good luck with that one!

 

[Desertguide]

54 minutes ago, HuntHarder said:

Would anyone agree that just about every game law is very hard to enforce?  The main reason is the lack of officers available to enforce the laws on the books.  This is where your ethics come into play.  In general, good people choose to follow the laws on the books, whether they 100% agree with them or not.  My bow sight is not legal in a few states that I hunt, I choose to use a different sight when I hunt in those states.  I have NEVER seen a warden, so I know that chances of me getting caught with my illegal sight there are very minimal, but they have laws and I choose to follow them.  Same goes for my ML in other states, not all states allow scopes or some ignition systems.  The whole unenforceable, so most will not follow the law is pure BS in my opinion.  

Ok then let's say everybody does obey the law. Let's go that route. If I'm an outfitter on the strip, I'm going to raise my fees $500 per hunt, add that money to what I spend on cameras and use it to hire some college kids to scout for a month before the season starts. I'll take one guy scouting over 10 cameras any day of the week. I'm still gonna kill the big ones... maybe even more. In the end, the only thing that has changed is regular guys that draw that tag once in their life "think" the playing field is level. I can't wait to hear all the "posse" complaints because this will double them. 

[HuntHarder]

Its not about killing the big ones, its about killing the big ones with some fair chase involved.  Atleast those college kids are out in the field actually hunting.  Those college kids are not going to see alot of those nocturnal bucks either.  You and I, both know big bucks are hard to keep tabs on.  They can travel miles in a day very easily.  That college kid better be versed in big bucks to stay on him. 

Its not just about guides vs regular hunters either.  I think some think that's what this ban is about, its more about giving the animals a little more elusiveness back.  Hopefully lowering the success rate and letting some bucks slip thru the cracks.  IMO, regular Joe hunters will have a harder time killing bucks.  Thats kind of what its about.  

[Desertguide]

1 hour ago, HuntHarder said:

Its not about killing the big ones, its about killing the big ones with some fair chase involved.  Atleast those college kids are out in the field actually hunting.  Those college kids are not going to see alot of those nocturnal bucks either.  You and I, both know big bucks are hard to keep tabs on.  They can travel miles in a day very easily.  That college kid better be versed in big bucks to stay on him. 

Its not just about guides vs regular hunters either.  I think some think that's what this ban is about, its more about giving the animals a little more elusiveness back.  Hopefully lowering the success rate and letting some bucks slip thru the cracks.  IMO, regular Joe hunters will have a harder time killing bucks.  Thats kind of what its about.  

No question regular Joe's will have a harder time... I've said that from the beginning. What does that do for the sport overall? That's the big question mark for me. Will we lose hunters because of it? Thats obviously yet to be seen..

What you have to keep in mind is you aren't the typical hunter. None of the guys on this post are typical of the average hunter out there. You're passionate about it... or you wouldn't be on a coues website in April... lol. You're also likely 10x more talented as a hunter than the average guy because you are passionate about it. When guys are passionate about something they also tend to obey the rules more. You're also not jealous of outfitters. I would say that most guys that hate outfitters because deep down they are jealous. Again... probably not the guys here because most the guys here can get out and get it done without an outfitter so there's nothing to be jealous of. They hate us for different reasons... 😂😂😂

I don't think this will make deer more elusive, I think it will make them less elusive. Why does a buck go nocturnal? Pressure. What does 20 cameras on a drinker create? Pressure. 

The fair chase argument is up for debate I guess. I personally think cameras are fair under most circumstances. The real time cell type cameras aren't in my opinion. But again... thats a matter of opinion and some will obviously disagree with me. That's cool. 

You also commented before about it being BS that guys will break the rule because it's unenforceable. I'll tell you a little known fact. 80% of the guides and outfitters out there break the law before they even get out of their trucks. Most of them don't have forest service permits, BLM permits, proper insurance, a food handlers card (required on Federal Land if you're preparing clients food), a CPR card or the proper medical kit in their pack. So if all those guys out there are already knowingly and willingly breaking the rules... why wouldn't they break one more? 

[654321]

4 hours ago, Desertguide said:

Do they? I see guys buying Deer Co Cain and other "bait" all the time. They aren't enforcing anything. When was the last time you heard of a guy in AZ getting busted for baiting? 

How do you know they are using it to take game.  Maybe they're part of that group that runs trail cameras because it's great family fun so they use Deer Co Cain for the great picture opportunities.  Plenty of poaching that goes on and people get away with it doesn't mean poaching isn't being enforced.