Trail camera rule changes!

[trphyhntr]

1 hour ago, AzDiamondHeat said:

 

Lets not start telling people how they should or should not be allowed to hunt or shame them because they need assistance perusing their passion.

I would LOVE to see a crossbow season(for my wife). If they mandated crossbows, airbows etc were only allowed during general I would be fine with that too.

There are a LOT of things I don't like about the current state of hunting, but lets not confuse ethics with physical inability.

 

If someone is missing an arm I can see it, if someone is worried they might hurt their shoulder I think that’s pretty lame. 

[HuntHarder]

Crossbow permits is another subject that azgfd needs to examine.  I agree it is abused by some.  I met a guy last year on my goat hunt that was clearly not disabled and even gave me a shiteating smirk when he said he could shoot 110 yards with his crossbow..

Again, a few bad apples gonna ruin it for all.  

[grey curse]

I can see how some/ many abuse the crossbow permit.  But that’s with every rule, law, regulations anywhere and everywhere.   Last yr my 78 yr old father that has had both shoulders operated on, had a truck crush him three yes ago and is on oxygen, was able to kill a (maybe his last) bull thanks to G&F giving him a x-bow permit.   A memory myself and my 13 yr old son,who where in the blind with him will never forget.  

[Outdoor Writer]

On 2/1/2021 at 3:10 PM, HuntHarder said:

Crossbow permits is another subject that azgfd needs to examine.  I agree it is abused by some.  I met a guy last year on my goat hunt that was clearly not disabled and even gave me a shiteating smirk when he said he could shoot 110 yards with his crossbow..

Again, a few bad apples gonna ruin it for all.  

I agree about the bad apples. That's the way it is with many things. 😉 I just don't think the fakers are as numerous as some think they are. 

As an aside...one doesn't have to look disabled to not be able to draw a bow. My youngest son ruined rotator in his right shoulder when he was in the Army 40 years ago and had a couple surgeries. He hasn't been able to draw a bow without major pain since. But if you see him or even watch him do other stuff with his right arm, you would never sense something is amiss with his shoulder. 

[Delw]

19 minutes ago, Outdoor Writer said:

There appears to be some confusion in regards to crossbow permits and CHAMPS permits. They are two different permits. A CHAMPS hunter, which relates to one's PERMANENT disability, has various benefits allowed such as shooting from a vehicle, etc. etc. It does NOT give the CHAMPS permit holder a dispensation to use a crossbow. Reason: because not all CHAMPS holders can't draw a bow. So like anyone else, the CHAMPS holder would have to apply for a crossbow permit if drawing a bow is a problem. 

So you're saying you drew elk archery bull elk permits from 2013 to 2017?? That's would be outstanding luck for Unit 8. NOW...were these half-dozen that you personally observed CHAMPS permit holders using crossbows, legitimate crossbow permit holders BEFORE they even applied or the alleged swappers you cited earlier?  Lastly, if any were the alleged swappers, how do YOU know whether their injury or condition was legit and not bad enough where they couldn't draw a bow? 

Yes I drew a tag one year daughter drew a tag the next year I drew a tag the next year. 3 consecutive tags in 3 consecutive years with 3 consecutive Early archery bull elk tags. we were up there for the entire season maybe minus a few days for her homework and my work. not to mention we were actually up there the archery deer seasons 4-5 days a week for the entire seasons for 5 years except the holiday weekend and prior to 2013 3-4 days a week during the archery deer seasons as well as a couple of days during the elk season when we didnt have elk tags. those 2 tags I got I gave to my daughter she only drew one( the middle one).  not lucky I got 3 lope tags in 4 years 5 or 6 years before these tags and those lope tags were drawn with a early rifle bull tag and 2 13 a tags

Champ permits I called Crossbow tags as well might have been my bad in calling them champ permits instead cross bow permits. If you would have read what I said in the begining you would have notice what I said. I quoted it and pasted it here since your a little slow and obviously didnt read it..

Quote

we ran into at least half a dozen one year in unit 8 during a early archery elk season. 3 of those guys we talk to. 2 guys were partnered both guys had doctor excuess, got drawn for archery then both had arm injuries and a note from doc which they got crossbow permits. both were in there late 60's. then a week later ran into another guy he had a wrap around his wrist got docs excuess. he was about 30. funny part he was splitting wood with an axe when we stumbled onto his camp.

I didnt count the guys that we saw on the road that Had CHAMP markings all over there trucks as they looked legit, they were obvious shooting from the vehicle I would assume as they had a Driver for each one. or the ones we see during the early archery deer seasons.

and yes I know more than a few personally that applied for a CHAMP or Crossbow permit during the archery season that they had a tag for because they got injured. I wont name the names as some were here on this forum Azbasszone forum and a few other forums, they can come out and say it or not. one poor dude fell off a ladder the 1st few days of his hunt, then bought a crossbow and and hunted the rest of the season.

BTW I know exactly what a Champ permit is and helped a friend(whom I met on a forum many years ago and in person many times build a shooting system( i only did mechanical he did the electronics) so he could take out a severely handicap person out hunting in the wilderness of Wyoming. he was a older rancher in wy and volunteer his land owner tags, horses and equipment for severely handicapped hunters that had no use of most of there body parts. the one I mentioned above only had movement of his right wrist and fingers. This rancher would do 3 hunts a season. The guy was a incredible person.

I have a son who is Handicapped and has a ton of friends who are Handicapped so I tend to pay attention to things like that.

 

[Delw]

18 minutes ago, Outdoor Writer said:

I agree about the bad apples. That's the way it is with many things. 😉 I just don't think the fakers are as numerous as some think they are. 

As an aside...one doesn't have to look disabled to not be able to draw a bow.

Then they shouldn't be putting in for archery hunts. Thats the whole point

[5guyshunting]

I can't draw my bow very well now, so I use a rifle. I can hang cameras though.😏

[Outdoor Writer]

15 hours ago, Delw said:

Then they shouldn't be putting in for archery hunts. Thats the whole point

It's legal for a person has that type of disability to apply for whatever type hunt he wants and it's also legal for him to apply for a crossbow permit if qualified for one. Until AGFD changes the rule in some way to prevent the actual fakers from doing the same, it will be that way. Maybe they should rewrite the rule so they would need a note from Del rather than a medical professional. 

Then once they prevent all this crossbow skulduggery from taking place, they can do something about guys that draw too many elk permits. 

[HuntHarder]

Tony- I think you are missing the point here.  Clearly, they can currently apply for any hunt they want to.  I think that is what I and others are saying, is that maybe G&F should look at this.  Should a guy whose shoulder is no longer allowing him to draw a bow, be able to crossbow hunt during an archery only hunt?  Or should that guy crossbow hunt during the general hunt?  It's a tricky situation because I can see arguments for both.  

[Outdoor Writer]

Just now, HuntHarder said:

Tony- I think you are missing the point here.  Clearly, they can currently apply for any hunt they want to.  I think that is what I and others are saying, is that maybe G&F should look at this.  Should a guy whose shoulder is no longer allowing him to draw a bow, be able to crossbow hunt during an archery only hunt?  Or should that guy crossbow hunt during the general hunt?  It's a tricky situation because I can see arguments for both.  

I just said that, as in "Until AGFD changes the rule in some way to prevent the actual fakers from doing the same, it will be that way" or for anyone, this whole discussion about this issue is moot.  And the first things the commissioners will ask are the same questions I've been asking to determine if there is an actual problem that needs solving. 

Now, I'm shutting down for night. I gotta go help my bride cook dinner. 

[AzDiamondHeat]

2 hours ago, trphyhntr said:

If someone is missing an arm I can see it, if someone is worried they might hurt their shoulder I think that’s pretty lame. 

 

Not when it is my WIFE who has been in the hospital multiple times for it.

Let me clarify...she shoots the crossbow because she WILL tear her arm out if she tries to pull back a bow(already did it once). There is no maybe or "worry" about it. But at least she is out trying to fill her own tag and not being proxy for a dude who just wants another elk hunt or even a point gatherer for our kids. (this is not directed at you trphy or anyone at all, just a general statement). She TRULY wants to hunt the elk up close during the rut and be a part of that. Who wouldn't?

Again though, if they say she has to shoot the crossbow during general so be it. But until then she will pursue them in the rut with a crossbow. She is a LEGITIMATE recipient and happy user of this allowance. I am not a crossbow fanboy but I do think they have their place. For me, I can do without them, but for my wife, I am happy she has the option.

But I will never let her use a cell enabled game cam. That is just unethical....lol

 

 

[AZBIG10]

7 minutes ago, AzDiamondHeat said:

 

Not when it is my WIFE who has been in the hospital multiple times for it.

Let me clarify...she shoots the crossbow because she WILL tear her arm out if she tries to pull back a bow(already did it once). There is no maybe or "worry" about it. But at least she is out trying to fill her own tag and not being proxy for a dude who just wants another elk hunt or even a point gatherer for our kids. (this is not directed at you trphy or anyone at all, just a general statement). She TRULY wants to hunt the elk up close during the rut and be a part of that. Who wouldn't?

Again though, if they say she has to shoot the crossbow during general so be it. But until then she will pursue them in the rut with a crossbow. She is a LEGITIMATE recipient and happy user of this allowance. I am not a crossbow fanboy but I do think they have their place. For me, I can do without them, but for my wife, I am happy she has the option.

But I will never let her use a cell enabled game cam. That is just unethical....lol

 

 

This said crossbow is deadly! I got to shoot it in 4b many moons ago. Good luck in the draw. Hope you guys get some elk tags!

Rule benders will always be present.  I just hope I get more opportunities with the "growth is too low this year" crowd. I enjoy having the tag. The antlers are an afterthought

[Delw]

32 minutes ago, AzDiamondHeat said:

 

Not when it is my WIFE who has been in the hospital multiple times for it.

Let me clarify...she shoots the crossbow because she WILL tear her arm out if she tries to pull back a bow(already did it once). There is no maybe or "worry" about it. But at least she is out trying to fill her own tag and not being proxy for a dude who just wants another elk hunt or even a point gatherer for our kids. (this is not directed at you trphy or anyone at all, just a general statement). She TRULY wants to hunt the elk up close during the rut and be a part of that. Who wouldn't?

Again though, if they say she has to shoot the crossbow during general so be it. But until then she will pursue them in the rut with a crossbow. She is a LEGITIMATE recipient and happy user of this allowance. I am not a crossbow fanboy but I do think they have their place. For me, I can do without them, but for my wife, I am happy she has the option.

But I will never let her use a cell enabled game cam. That is just unethical....lol

 

 

I really wish you hadnt posted again, Im not singling you out but your posts are a perfect example to why anyone can play the system and get a crossbow permit during the archery season.

your wife has a bad shoulder I understand that BUT can she shoot a rifle or muzzy? if yes then people in her situation should only be allowed to put in for rifle or muzzy. Dont care what she has a passion for that not the point. there are early rifle bull tags she should put in for one of those.

you yourself have a crossbow permit, you said so in a post above. but yet you can shoot a rifle just fine and a bow from what you have said but yet you play the crossbow permit game..

This leaves the game open for rifle hunters who cant shoot a bow worth a crap can put in for archery tag cause they want to hunt early archery Bull then get a crossbow permit.

I'm assuming the Crossbow permit was made to allowed people that got hurt between the time they drew the tag and the time of there hunt. to still use there tag. I bet they had NO intention of letting someone who obviously Cant shoot a bow for what ever reason put in for archery tags then change it for a crossbow permit. Unfortunately G&F trust people in most ways when they make there game laws. when they do that then the people who play the system always find a way to cheat the system so to speak.

 

[AzDiamondHeat]

1 hour ago, Delw said:

I really wish you hadnt posted again, Im not singling you out but your posts are a perfect example to why anyone can play the system and get a crossbow permit during the archery season.

your wife has a bad shoulder I understand that BUT can she shoot a rifle or muzzy? if yes then people in her situation should only be allowed to put in for rifle or muzzy. Dont care what she has a passion for that not the point. there are early rifle bull tags she should put in for one of those.

you yourself have a crossbow permit, you said so in a post above. but yet you can shoot a rifle just fine and a bow from what you have said but yet you play the crossbow permit game..

This leaves the game open for rifle hunters who cant shoot a bow worth a crap can put in for archery tag cause they want to hunt early archery Bull then get a crossbow permit.

I'm assuming the Crossbow permit was made to allowed people that got hurt between the time they drew the tag and the time of there hunt. to still use there tag. I bet they had NO intention of letting someone who obviously Cant shoot a bow for what ever reason put in for archery tags then change it for a crossbow permit. Unfortunately G&F trust people in most ways when they make there game laws. when they do that then the people who play the system always find a way to cheat the system so to speak.

 

I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree with you in regards to my wife. If you read the regs and the qualifications my wife is a PRIME candidate for whom the permit was intended.

Hunting IS a passion. THAT is the ONLY point that is needed. Her physical inability to draw back a 40lb bow should NOT prevent her from pursuing this passion. I personally would never hunt elk with a 40 ln bow but they say that is "ethical".

Yes, my wife can shoot a rifle but has no desire to do so. Can YOU shoot a rifle? If so does that disqualify you from any other season? My wife is no different and is playing by the rules and in NO WAY is gaming the system.

It is not our place to say who can and who cannot hunt based on ability or disability. Do you SERIOUSLY want that regulated? SERIOUSLY??

Yes, I DO have a permit and I got it for a very specific reasons(which reasons are my own). As I ALSO stated I do not use it for hunting big game. I just "have" it.

I am ecstatic my wife can hunt elk during the rut even if she is not capable enough by your standards to do so. For this I will make NO apologies.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Shawn]

5 hours ago, HuntHarder said:

Atleast you have to be in the field to use the rangefinder.  You can literally set 5 cameras out, come back in 2 months, figure out which area has more deer in it and make a game plan from there.  

Imagine if you had to scout those areas without cameras now.  You have to hit each area atleast a couple days, sit there for hours and actually put in a little effort.   Only after 10 days or so in the field, would you gain a little knowledge of the animals in the area.  

Then you have to commit to an area and hunt it with no camera watching your other areas.  So if the animals  change their patterns, you now need to start your scouting over and start actually putting time in the field.  

Its really easy to put cameras out, check said sd cards, narrow down your hunt area and start having some success.  The odds that you kill the biggest buck on camera is still low, but atleast you are in the batter's box swinging away.  

 

Like I said rangfinders have been the death of a heck of a lot more animals than trail cams. I missed a lot of animals with a bow in the 80s and early 90s.  My success went way up because of a rangefinder not because of trail cams.  I agree we have a camera problem on the strip and maybe a couple elk units.  Just think they need to look at the problem units not hole state.