Trail camera rule changes!

[trphyhntr]

21 minutes ago, Outdoor Writer said:

Wonder how that happened? 🙄

Omitted a bit from this quoted post didn’t you 

 

24 minutes ago, Outdoor Writer said:

So enlighten everyone; just how many CHAMP hunters are there, and how many of them draw archery elk permits each year & use airbows?

Is that kind of info available? 
 

anyone that spends much time on archery hunts has seen. 

[trphyhntr]

Is that even how it works, people with crossbow exemptions don’t get a different otc tag do they?

[AzDiamondHeat]

You don't even need a doctor. You can have a nurse or a chiropractor sign off.

My wife has a crossbow permit as do I. I got mine because my shoulder was torn and I have a history of shoulder surgeries.

My wife was injured as a child and can draw a bow but runs the danger of it tearing out her shoulder. As such we avoid that and she shoots a crossbow. Truth is though she has never killed an animal with it.

Personally, I hate using a crossbow for elk and never will. To ME, they are cumbersome and provide little to no advantage(maybe a little in the optics end). Yes, they can shoot quarter size groups off a tripod at 60 or more, but who carries a tripod with them in the field?(other than blind sitters). I feel I am actually more accurate off hand with my bow than I am with the crossbow. And faster.

Sitting in a blind is a WHOLE different story. Crossbows are PERFECT for sitting in a blind.

With my crossbow I can hit every single trail cam around any water hole if I am sitting and braced on a tripod.

 

 

 

 

 

[Outdoor Writer]

38 minutes ago, trphyhntr said:

Omitted a bit from this quoted post didn’t you 

 

Is that kind of info available? 
 

anyone that spends much time on archery hunts has seen. 

Omittted the nonessential. The point: it is not uncommon for you to send a thread off the rails with an irrelevant comment. 

I would guess a FOA request would provide the accurate CHAMP #s, while "anyone that spends much time on archery hunts has seen" is nothing more than hyperbole. 

[40-year-AZ-hunter]

21 hours ago, SirRoyal said:

Your referring to Community Theft that will be perpetuated by haters of Trail Cameras believing they have the right to steal based on an unenforceable law! 

Rather than stealing, it could be considered picking up abandoned property and turning it in to the proper authority.  If it's not supposed to be there, it is likely abandoned or lost. Then the "owner" can claim it from the authorities and explain what it was doing out there.  I hope that becomes the norm. Ban the dang things and let folks get back to the true heritage of hunting.

[stanley]

My head keeps going back to the podcast with Kurt Davis and Jim Goughnour from the other thread.

In the podcast, Davis expresses the sentiment a couple of times that refers to 'hunting skills' and the old school ways of doing things.  He says "we have hunted for 1000s of years, and somehow did it without cameras...." and "We'll be able to hunt well into the future.....  for those who work the hardest, those that walk the land, those who learn the signs..."  "a fear that I have as a sportsman, is that some of those skills are being lost, and not passed on...".    So basically he is stating that he thinks that the rudimentary basics skills of old-school hunting should be passed on to future generations, and that is one of the reasons he is pushing for the ban.   That sentiment from Davis is what I have a problem with.  While I may agree with him that it's cool to pass down those rudimentary skills, I have a problem with him using that as an excuse to ban the cameras for the take of wildlife (Starts to smell very much like a scope vs. iron sites kind of debate....).

Squishy territory, when you start to make a judgment call for ALL regarding what skills/traditions are important to pass along.  Teach your grandkids all you want about how to hunt, but please don't get your nose into the business of how and what I'll teach mine!  

 

 

[eddielasvegas]

I agree stanley.  While game should be managed, it's not like trail cameras allow 50% more game to be taken.

I wonder if Davis still drives one of these?  I assure you this will keep his driving skills at their peak if that is his goal. 

 

Eddie

[Delw]

1 hour ago, Outdoor Writer said:

, while "anyone that spends much time on archery hunts has seen" is nothing more than hyperbole. 

And you know this Because of your vast amount of experience archery hunting back when in the 70's-90's. This issue with tag swapping for champ tags has basically just started about 8-10 years ago, and has gotten more popular over the resent years.

so no its not an exaggeration as you Say it is.

just to be on the same page these, we are talking about archery hunters who get a tag and then apply for a permit to use a cross bow during the general Archery season due to an injury or supposed injury. Not people who put in for a legitimate Champ permit on the champ seasons.

[Shawn]

Rangefinders! Should we get rid of rangefinders? Way more animals have died because of a rangefinder than a trail cam

[Delw]

1 hour ago, AzDiamondHeat said:

You don't even need a doctor. You can have a nurse or a chiropractor sign off.

My wife has a crossbow permit as do I. I got mine because my shoulder was torn and I have a history of shoulder surgeries.

My wife was injured as a child and can draw a bow but runs the danger of it tearing out her shoulder. As such we avoid that and she shoots a crossbow. Truth is though she has never killed an animal with it.

Personally, I hate using a crossbow for elk and never will. To ME, they are cumbersome and provide little to no advantage(maybe a little in the optics end). Yes, they can shoot quarter size groups off a tripod at 60 or more, but who carries a tripod with them in the field?(other than blind sitters). I feel I am actually more accurate off hand with my bow than I am with the crossbow. And faster.

Sitting in a blind is a WHOLE different story. Crossbows are PERFECT for sitting in a blind.

With my crossbow I can hit every single trail cam around any water hole if I am sitting and braced on a tripod.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not singleing you out it sucks not to be able to hunt like you like ,

but in all honesty if someone knows they cant pul back a bow that they shouldn't be putting in for a Archery tag. theres always rifles and muzzy season and a few Champ seasons. Putting in for a archery tag then grabbing a crossbow permit. air bow permit is in my Opinion BS and shouldn't be allowed. Same deal with if someone gets injured between the time they got drawn and the time of there hunt. either use point guard or donate the tag. Which in my opinion again thats the only reason they should allow people to use point guard Legitimate excuses.

[HuntHarder]

20 minutes ago, Shawn said:

Rangefinders! Should we get rid of rangefinders? Way more animals have died because of a rangefinder than a trail cam

Atleast you have to be in the field to use the rangefinder.  You can literally set 5 cameras out, come back in 2 months, figure out which area has more deer in it and make a game plan from there.  

Imagine if you had to scout those areas without cameras now.  You have to hit each area atleast a couple days, sit there for hours and actually put in a little effort.   Only after 10 days or so in the field, would you gain a little knowledge of the animals in the area.  

Then you have to commit to an area and hunt it with no camera watching your other areas.  So if the animals  change their patterns, you now need to start your scouting over and start actually putting time in the field.  

Its really easy to put cameras out, check said sd cards, narrow down your hunt area and start having some success.  The odds that you kill the biggest buck on camera is still low, but atleast you are in the batter's box swinging away.  

 

[Outdoor Writer]

2 hours ago, Delw said:

And you know this Because of your vast amount of experience archery hunting back when in the 70's-90's. This issue with tag swapping for champ tags has basically just started about 8-10 years ago, and has gotten more popular over the resent years.

so no its not an exaggeration as you Say it is.

just to be on the same page these, we are talking about archery hunters who get a tag and then apply for a permit to use a cross bow during the general Archery season due to an injury or supposed injury. Not people who put in for a legitimate Champ permit on the champ seasons.

I didn't see anyone define the "swapping" you're talking about and assume you actually mean swapping for a crossbow permt and not "champ tags." So...since you want to go there and seem to have some vast amount of experience with it...if this "swapping" is so popular, perhaps you can put some sort of number on it. To get you kick started, in 2019, there were 5877 reg. archery elk permits, and 1701 elk were killed. How many dudes got drawn for one of those archery permits and THEN applied for a crossbow permit??

And I'll ask you the same question I asked prior: how many hunters overall have CHAMP permits? And how many of them have crossbow permits??

[AzDiamondHeat]

37 minutes ago, Delw said:

I'm not singleing you out it sucks not to be able to hunt like you like ,

but in all honesty if someone knows they cant pul back a bow that they shouldn't be putting in for a Archery tag. theres always rifles and muzzy season and a few Champ seasons. Putting in for a archery tag then grabbing a crossbow permit. air bow permit is in my Opinion BS and shouldn't be allowed. Same deal with if someone gets injured between the time they got drawn and the time of there hunt. either use point guard or donate the tag. Which in my opinion again thats the only reason they should allow people to use point guard Legitimate excuses.

 

Lets not start telling people how they should or should not be allowed to hunt or shame them because they need assistance perusing their passion.

I would LOVE to see a crossbow season(for my wife). If they mandated crossbows, airbows etc were only allowed during general I would be fine with that too.

There are a LOT of things I don't like about the current state of hunting, but lets not confuse ethics with physical inability.

 

[Delw]

30 minutes ago, Outdoor Writer said:

I didn't see anyone define the "swapping" you're talking about and assume you actually mean wapping for a crossbow permt and not "champ tags." So...since you want to go there and seem to have some vast amount of experience with it...if this "swapping" is so popular, perhaps you can put some sort of number on it. To get you kick started, in 2019, there were 5877 reg. archery elk permits, and 1701 elk were killed. How many dudes got drawn for one of those archery permits and THEN applied for a crossbow permit??

And I'll ask you the same question I asked prior: how many hunters overall have CHAMP permits? 

Tag swapping. guy gets drawn for archery elk or deer or what ever. somehow he is rendered unable to use a bow. goes to doc. , doc gives letter, calls or what ever to change his archery elk deer or what ever Tag to allow the Champ uses. during that same Archery season, same unit etc etc..

I cant speak for 2019 but 2013-2017 I can. usually about half dozen people in Unit 8 alone have Champ permits during that early archery bull hunt. like I stated above. if I recall the permits for early archery bull were 200. those were just the guys hunting on the south west side, as I generally dont hunt anywhere else in that unit as there is no need to.

 

16 minutes ago, AzDiamondHeat said:

 

Lets not start telling people how they should or should not be allowed to hunt or shame them because they need assistance perusing their passion.

I would LOVE to see a crossbow season(for my wife). If they mandated crossbows, airbows etc were only allowed during general I would be fine with that too.

There are a LOT of things I don't like about the current state of hunting, but lets not confuse ethics with physical inability.

 

Thats what I was trying to avoid ,

I have no problem with crossbows or airbows proving its during the general season or a champ season. more power to them. yes I think a crossbow season should be ok'd always have.  but at the same time They have a muzzy season and a rifle ie general season where I believe crossbows  can be used legally just like someone can use archery during those seasons.

I have no problems with Champ people shooting out of vehicles either I think its great as I have known people who cant walk for a few reasons but love to hunt, Due to the Champ permits they can. But thats not what were talking about. its Someone Knowing  cant hunt with a bow shouldnt ( In my opinion) be putting in for archery only seasons and then getting a Champ permit to use other means on that tag. basically they are taking advantage of the system just to get a better chance at a tag.

its kinda like transgender Men going into  womens athletic competition. they cant do the sport like it was meant because there " inability" to compete "physically", so they Change genders and enter in a easier class for a better outcome with their "physical inability"

 

 

[Outdoor Writer]

39 minutes ago, Delw said:

Tag swapping. guy gets drawn for archery elk or deer or what ever. somehow he is rendered unable to use a bow. goes to doc. , doc gives letter, calls or what ever to change his archery elk deer or what ever Tag to allow the Champ uses. during that same Archery season, same unit etc etc..

I cant speak for 2019 but 2013-2017 I can. usually about half dozen people in Unit 8 alone have Champ permits during that early archery bull hunt. like I stated above. if I recall the permits for early archery bull were 200. those were just the guys hunting on the south west side, as I generally dont hunt anywhere else in that unit as there is no need to.

There appears to be some confusion in regards to crossbow permits and CHAMPS permits. They are two different permits. A CHAMPS hunter, which relates to one's PERMANENT disability, has various benefits allowed such as shooting from a vehicle, etc. etc. It does NOT give the CHAMPS permit holder a dispensation to use a crossbow. Reason: because not all CHAMPS holders can't draw a bow. So like anyone else, the CHAMPS holder would have to apply for a crossbow permit if drawing a bow is a problem. 

So you're saying you drew archery bull elk permits from 2013 to 2017?? That's would be outstanding luck for Unit 8. NOW...were these half-dozen that you personally observed CHAMPS permit holders using crossbows, legitimate crossbow permit holders BEFORE they even applied or the alleged swappers you cited earlier?  Lastly, if any were the alleged swappers, how do YOU know whether their injury or condition was legit and not bad enough where they couldn't draw a bow?