Deer & Cattle

[AZP&Y]

= hunting in az...

[billrquimby]

<<<<<<<<< know this thread is about deer and cattle and has gotten off to a very deep path of discussion. I would like to throw out an example where cattle and ranching helped a species thrive. Back in 1939 when the Cabez Prieta Refuge was established there was a large number of cattle and the water and food sources to support them. Natural and man made. The decision was made by USFW to remove the cattle grazing rights and remove the water sources that were not natural. Prior to this decision the numbers of the currently endangered Sonoran Pronghorn was in the hundreds. After the removal of the water sources used by the ranchers the Pronghorn started to die off not surprisingy. At one time the herd dwindled down to less than 10 animals! Recently the USFW has established artificial water sources and a food plot to bring the numbers back up and now are around 40 animals after a transplant operation with animals from mexico. My point is that cattle and the ranchers that raise them do alot for the natural environment. I will get off my soap box now.... >>>>>>

 

I know a bit about the Cabeza Prieta and the decision to remove cattle from it. I won two press awards and was named the Governor's Conservation Communicator of the year after I did a series of newspaper articles and photos exposing livestock overgrazing on America's remotest wildlife refuge. This was before land management agencies, refuges, wildlife agencies -- and cattlemen -- really got serious about multiple use and sustainable habitat management. Every range manager I interviewed claimed the place was a horrible mess. I've forgotten the numbers but I seem to remember being told here were at least four times the number of cattle on the refuge as the allotment allowed.

 

As for water, at the time the grazing permit was yanked, my sources claimed there had never been a documented report of anyone seeing a Sonoran pronghorn using water. They drink water, of course, but they apparently have additional sources other than developed livestock waters out in that nasty desert.

 

About the same time, while I was serving a term as the president of the Lander (Wyoming) One Shot Antelope Hunt's Past Shooters Club, I got the club's board to approve a donation of $10,000 for water development for the Sonoran pronghorn on the Cabeza Prieta. Until then, little was known about the subspecies even though it already had been officially declared endangered.

 

Dave Brown, then the AZGFD's big game chief, instead asked that we earmark the money for an aerial survey and a pronghorn movement study, neither of which had ever been done before. He felt building new water sources would benefit coyotes more than pronghorns, and predation by coyotes was the limiting factor for pronghorn reproduction and survival.

 

The Department of Defense got into the act and provided a free helicopter, and in addition to counting pronghorns, a couple of animals were caught and collared. The publicity that resulted from the project our puny seed money launched (especially coming from an out-of-state hunting club) apparently embarassed a bunch of other groups and money for Sonoran pronghorns never again was a problem.

 

Don't remember hearing that the number of pronghorns on the Cabeza Prieta ever fell to ten. It could be so, but I do know that tracking collared animals showed that they moved in and out of Mexico regularly. Could that survey have been done at a time when most of them were south of the border?

 

Bill Quimby

[Kilimanjaro]

Let us not forget what cattle can do to Mearns quail habitat in a hurry..

 

Its pretty much a sure bet where there are cows, there will be no quail.

[KGAINES]

Humans have destroyed more habitat than any other species, should we eliminate them as well, I mean we are an invasive feral species to most places. Too many times nowdays we like to act like the past never happened or that everything done in the past was wrong or bad, and that it must not be good now. The dams that were built on the rivers in AZ and the western United States changed the west way more than any cows did. I see people griping about farms, about dairies, about chicken and pig ranches, nobody wants them close to their houses, but every year someone goes in and builds a subdivision right next door, sells the lots and houses and then pisses and moans until they move, and these farmers and ranchers keep moving further and further away from people, and the people follow them and keep them moving. These farmers grow and raise stuff they can sell, and they sell it or they wouldn't be doing it, the ranchers are still selling their cattle and these farmers still sell their crops, and until the demand isn't there the cattle and farmers will be. Not to many years ago a few miles away I could work on a tractor or other piece of equipment for a rancher or on a dairy, now they are quite a few miles away, but not to worry I can work on a piece of equipment on a golf course or a little lawn tractor at someones house in the same area. I would rather have to walk past some cows to hunt, than to drive through sub-divisions, and make sure I am not in some new annexed city limits that I was unaware of. To each his own I guess.

 

[bowsniper]

= riparian areas in Arizona (San Pedro River)

 

[NRS]

= riparian areas in Arizona (San Pedro River)

 

Bowsniper...

 

That is a 30+ year old photo from the BLM archives of what the San Pedro looked like while it was in PRIVATE OWNERSHIP BY THE OWNERS OF THE CHEVRON OIL COMPANY. granted the area looks a lot different now with no cattle on it for 20 years, but then so does the state and forest service lands to the west of the SP, and they are grazed but still have good grass cover. Or look at the Las Cienegas National Conservation Area that is also grazed and still has a huntable herd of antelope which is a rarity in southern Arizona.

[Coues Archer]

I dont believe that deer get scared with cattle, I've seen deer by cattle and ive also heard that they sometimes even walk with cattle.

[ThomC]

As a general rule different species tend to stay with their own kind. So, I wouldn't expect to see deer hanging around cows very long. One year I was Elk Hunting and a rancher had let loose hundreds of heifers in my favorite spot. Every water hole had some hanging around. The stupid things would actually follow me around. As, you would expect the Elk had left.

 

I believe that the answer is "it depends". Coues Deer can be found almost anywhere on a given day. You have to look every everywhere.

 

As to the side topic "who is more important the rancher or the hunter". It's the same answer " it depends". The real problem is in the numbers. How many people, cows, deer, ranchers, hunters can an acre support and maintain a reasonable life style. And what lifestyle do you call reasonable? China is an example of what we could become if we don't watch out.

 

 

[IHunt2live]

You know I don't think its the ranchers that are to blame. Its the state land department. All of this state trust land, which a lot of us hunt is ment to raise money for schools and that state alows it to be grazed much much harder then it should until the land is beyond hope then they sell it to developers. Thats the "managment" stratigy of the state land department.

To me the Forest service is getting a lot better in managing grazing. They have taken data from mears studies into acount and manage it, to an extent for mearns. The mearns spots that I see that are grazed hard are on private land but luckly much of mearns habitat is found on the national forests.

[billrquimby]

It's only my opinion (but it's based on a 72-year-lifetime that included hunting in every corner of Arizona) that our state's wildlife habitat is in the best shape that I've seen. There are some exceptions, but on the whole, land managers and grazers are better educated and more professional now. I honestly believe most truly want to be good stewards. I couldn't say that in the 1940s, 1950s, 1960s or even the 1970s.

 

Bill Quimby

[audsley]

Guess I missed a good one.

 

The extremely important things that needed to be said (and some that didn't) have already been said, and someone could take this thread, cull a bit of garbage, and write a really good article that hits all the important points about ranching and wildlife.

 

The Federal wildlife biologist is right that most of the Federal lands are in pretty good shape. I believe there are two reasons. First, there are far fewer cattle on Arizona's rangelands today than since maybe the 1880s. Second, ranchers and land management agencies are more conscientious about taking care of the land, having been hammered for past abuses and negligence.

 

State trust lands are still a problem, but it's not just due to understaffing. Not all allotment managers are equally conscientious. A few still allow lessees to get away with murder. In surveying range conditions to determine acceptable cattle numbers, some allotment managers allow browse to be factored into the equation. I believe this is wrong. The browse belong to the deer. Cattle numbers shouldn't exceed what the grasses alone can support.

 

There are also some BLM and national forest lands where individual allotment managers in the agencies seem to be in the hip pockets of the ranchers. Unit 4B in the Black Mesa Ranger District is a good example.

 

It's tempting to blame cattle for the low desert mule deer numbers in southern Arizona. Willow Springs and Falcon Valley ranches in 37B are examples of state trust land that hasn't had especially good stewardship in recent years, and there are very few mule deer left there. But Las Cienegas Conservation Area and King's Anvil are in splendid condition, and their mule deer numbers are down too. I don't know why we're losing our mule deer.

 

Although I've often read that only 2% of the nation's beef comes from public lands grazing, I don't believe it's accurate. I believe that 2% reflects only what goes directly to market from public lands. A lot of the cattle that go to the slaugherhouse from Iowa or Ohio were born on public lands in the West, then sold as calves or yearlings and moved to the Midwest. I believe Western cattle are an important source of the nation's beef and leather.

[.270]

you're right, the 2% deal is another way to lie without really lieing. 2% go from the range to the packing house. it's the high dollar grass fed stuff you see in the stores. it's more like 30%+ of America's beef that originates on grazing land. a lot of that is also on private land. some places have huge amounts of private land. that doesn't really count, with what we're talking about. we went on the depradation elk hunt this past weekend. about half of the land where we were is private. old checkerboard railroad land. none of it was locked up, and it could all have been. make it a little harder on the ranchers and see what happens. my entire slant is that ranchers follow the rules, or they get hammered. in the past that hasn't always been true, but it is now. and some folks think that just because they don't like something that is perfectly ok, moral, ethical, necessary, highly regulated and completely legal, it should be outlawed. just because they don't like it. public land is the only avenue that hunting and angling for the common man has, to stay alive. it is also the only avenue for a lot of other things. joint use. huggers are predators who take out the weakest, one at a time. they have infiltrated every gov't agency with any authority over the land and change the rules little by little. they are very good at lies and deciet and getting unknowing toadys to be their footsoldiers. it's apparant that a lot of hunters would like to get rid of cattle. even tho it is completely legal. it won't stop there. we're on the list. and when it all comes down, anyone who helps get rid of any legal enterprise or recreational opportunity on public land, through those actions, will eventually be part and party to outlawing sport hunting on public land. right now, every one who enjoys public land, fights each other. even the different groups are broken up into smaller groups. bowhunters, riflehunters, treestanders, saltsitters, houndmen, baiters, etc., etc. a bunch of them only worry about what affects them most. instead of seeing the big picture and seeing how anti's divide and conquer. stay away from the fence. get on one side or the other, so we know who the enemy is and isn't. by closing ranks and fighting for someone who may have a little different view than you is how you win wars. Lark.

[ajohunter]

I know a bit about the Cabeza Prieta and the decision to remove cattle from it. I won two press awards and was named the Governor's Conservation Communicator of the year after I did a series of newspaper articles and photos exposing livestock overgrazing on America's remotest wildlife refuge. This was before land management agencies, refuges, wildlife agencies -- and cattlemen -- really got serious about multiple use and sustainable habitat management. Every range manager I interviewed claimed the place was a horrible mess. I've forgotten the numbers but I seem to remember being told here were at least four times the number of cattle on the refuge as the allotment allowed.

 

As for water, at the time the grazing permit was yanked, my sources claimed there had never been a documented report of anyone seeing a Sonoran pronghorn using water. They drink water, of course, but they apparently have additional sources other than developed livestock waters out in that nasty desert.

 

About the same time, while I was serving a term as the president of the Lander (Wyoming) One Shot Antelope Hunt's Past Shooters Club, I got the club's board to approve a donation of $10,000 for water development for the Sonoran pronghorn on the Cabeza Prieta. Until then, little was known about the subspecies even though it already had been officially declared endangered.

 

Dave Brown, then the AZGFD's big game chief, instead asked that we earmark the money for an aerial survey and a pronghorn movement study, neither of which had ever been done before. He felt building new water sources would benefit coyotes more than pronghorns, and predation by coyotes was the limiting factor for pronghorn reproduction and survival.

 

The Department of Defense got into the act and provided a free helicopter, and in addition to counting pronghorns, a couple of animals were caught and collared. The publicity that resulted from the project our puny seed money launched (especially coming from an out-of-state hunting club) apparently embarassed a bunch of other groups and money for Sonoran pronghorns never again was a problem.

 

Don't remember hearing that the number of pronghorns on the Cabeza Prieta ever fell to ten. It could be so, but I do know that tracking collared animals showed that they moved in and out of Mexico regularly. Could that survey have been done at a time when most of them were south of the border?

 

Bill Quimby

 

Thanks bill, that is alot of good info. Not many people know where the money first came from for those pronghorn. Im not exactly sure of the time of year of the survey that only counted 10 animals I can find out for you. The subject of the pronghorn not drinking standing water has been around for a long time and eventually pictures were taken of pronghorn watering at a drinker. I have gone out with the biologista on the BMGR that monitor the animals and have seen how tough these animals are. I have some pics I will post on another thread.

 

Eric

 

[dipper]

No disrespect intended, but according to Merriam's online dictionary and online encyclopedia Britannica it is "wildebeest"...maybe we should stick with gnu...

[Non-Typical Solutions]

This has been an interesting thread, didn't really pay any attentiont to it until today. Kind of reminds me about my mom, after building a beautiful summer home up in Alpine, she made the comment that she hoped nobody built next to them so it would stay nice and pretty.......I commented to my mom that maybe somebody else wanted to enjoy the cool mountain air too.......

 

We all want what we want but don't want anybody else to have what we have caus what they are doing hurts the environment.

 

People down in the valley want farmers to keep the dust down......double LL people, farming was there before most of you were....

 

Over on Three forks there are now signs telling you not to go into the grassy meadow there because there are frogs down there.....imagine, frogs in the meadow where the river runs through........

 

Signs on the dirt roads throughout the white mountain area telling you not to turn your dog loose because there are wolves out there and your dog might get attacked and heaven forbid do not throw a rock at the wolf you might scare it off.

 

They built a dad gum boat dock on the backside of Big Lake and ruined the best walk in fishing hole that there was on that lake.........

 

And if you think the elk herd in AZ hasn't done its fair share of depleting deer habitat then you probably haven't paid any attention to the numbers of lions in this state either.

 

I put lion at the top of the list for reasons deer numbers are where they are, then you go ahead and throw in drought and now you have serious deer problems........

 

And.....you really aren't giving the elusive coues deer much credit if you think that cows are running them off........

 

 

Did I get everything covered......shouldn't have read that thread all in one setting.....got my blood boiling......