Deer & Cattle

[.270]

go back next year and take a photo of the same place, it will most likely be a mirror image. grass on the other side, no grass on the grassy side. that's how grazing works. you move the cows around. it's called rotation. the places that are fenced in are called pastures. it's an ancient concept that still works. you can say all you want about science, but those are the rules ranchers live by and rules the gov't has come up with. the amount of grass on a place is determined by the clumps of grass, not by the height. as long as the individual plants and alive and ok, the size is secondary, because with rain, they return. those are the rules. and outside of cattle and elk, there aren't a lot of animals in Az. that use much grass. we have a few sheep and horses, but not many. a deer's diet involves very little grass. small game, birds and rodents utilize a lot of grass seeds. the stalks have very little nutrition. and forget all the talk about drought. this is Az. we've been in a drought for over 1000 years. it's the desert. it dosn't rain much here. we have dry years and we have drier years. drought has nothing to do with it. it's the nature of the land. we live hear because we can control our environment. we build dams and canals and drill wells. we build houses and roads. it's the way it is. what i'm trying to tell you is that ranchers live within a very set bunch of rules and laws. they don't make them up. i'm pretty sure that as a whole, they would do a better job of managing the land if they had only minimal burrocrattic involvement. and if you want to piss em off, they will lock gates and nothing you do will open em. most of these guys have generations invested in their places. their great great grandads homesteaded the water and creeks and stuff and they own a lot of access to what is now public land. there have been billions invested over the years in improvements. i know of at least one really good whitetail area that is going to most likely be locked up this year because of some game wardens saying some really stupid things. ranchers are here, they have been here, and they are going to stay here for a long time and we're all better off with them here. they live within the rules or the pay heavily. the guy i said that got his permit cut in half, he had to sell out in order to pay his fines. it broke him. and it was his fault. one rancher by wilcox spent a long time in prison simply because he decided he didn't have to do what the judge said. the old spear ranch where i spent so much of my youth was recently sold and all the patented land is being subdivided. it's going to have a real detrimental affect on the west end of the pinalenos. the folks that owned it couldn't make anything on it because their permit had been cut back because of a bat. don't know what bats have to do with grazing, but that was the tool that was finally used to pry em off the land. say all you want. but first thing you need to do is sell your guns and buy some birkenstocks. it sounds to me like you're more than a little on the hugger side. only way any of us are ever going to weather the storm is for everyone who wants to use the land to stick together and look to each other as allies and not as enemies. get off the fence. Lark.

[AzHunt]

AzHunt,

 

Good question!

 

#1- There is no need for cattle numbers to fluxuate. Each lease should have already identified how much cattle they can run during extreme drought conditions. We saw these conditions in 2004 I believe. This allows plant communities to regenerate during wet years and eases the stress on wildlife populations. It will be up to the Game and Fish to manage elk herds at this level also. Right now, the more elk that are killed, the more cattle that are allowed on lease lands. This will also allow fire to stay on the ground and move fast accross the landscape like it should.

 

#2- Cattle need to be limited to historic grassland habitat types. They need to be kept out of the large canyons and riparian areas. Forage monitoring needs to be established on all public land leases to ensure that plant communities are able to regenerate.

 

Long term goal is to re-establish a productive ecosystem in which all wildlife can benefit. This will enhance hunting, fishing, hiking, camping, biking, bird watching, etc.... It won't do much for mining, farming or ATV riding-sorry.

 

 

It appears that you would like all public land returned to designated Wilderness Areas.

[couesdog]

Azhunt,

Nope- has nothing to do with wilderness- has to do with cattle grazing on public land in AZ.

 

Lark,

 

I appreciate and respect your views. I know that this issue will not be resolved in my lifetime. It always comes back to the arguement that cattle ranching in Arizona is just a way of life. People are always scared of change. My great grandpa was a blacksmith- he had to find something else to do. Goes back to the statements that you made earlier about "dynamics". (Remember-we are just talking about AZ here not the US)

 

Access is always a concern. We are spoiled in AZ cause we don't have much access issues except in the SE part of the state and in Unit 10. We are not talking about private land grazing. Ranching on public lands in AZ is nothing more than a government subsidized hobby. There are very few ranches in AZ that still make a profit. Some operations, such as the Babbits in Northern AZ, are grazing smart and are actually benifiting the landscape.

 

I understand range management. One thing that you are forgetting is that when cows are in areas with little or no grass (like bighorn habitat), they still have to eat something. The only thing left is the high energy foods that deer need to survive.

 

I agree that we need to stick together, especially as hunters. It irritates me when I see sportsmen's groups fight with each other. I think we have beat this topic to death. I am going to hang up my birkenstocks (they look real nice below my full size lion mount).

[.270]

no, you respect your views. my only view is that i want to be able to enjoy public land and i feel everyone else should have that right, also. just as long as they stay inside the rules. expensive hobby or not, they've forked out the cash to do what they're doing. sorry you see cows and bighorns together. the rancher is just following the rules that the govt' made. too bad you can't understand that. i know a lot of ranchers. it ain't a hobby. it's their job. just like yours. and they have more invested in it than you do. you can't just arbitrarilly decide that because you see a cow in your scope that it's a bad thing. well, i guess you can. but most folks see it a little different. so you killed a lion? i can't even remember all of mine. the worst problem bighorns have is poor management. not cows. ranchers just do what they are allowed. if you don't like it, change the rules. but you'll hafta get on the other side o' the fence to do it. which ain't too bad o' deal, because we don't need huggers on this side. Lark.

[bobbyo]

Couesdog,

First off welcome to the sight. I thought your argument was measured and well thought out and frankly not very radical. 1.Keep cows out of certain sensitive areas. 2. There are much better areas then Arizona to raise cows, where they undoubtly have less impact on the enviornment. I agree with you. Even Lark himself backs that up.

(cic)this is Az. we've been in a drought for over 1000 years. it's the desert. it dosn't rain much here. we have dry years and we have drier years. drought has nothing to do with it. it's the nature of the land.

If you suggest some areas should be, forgive the indescretion, "protected", then you obviously want the whole state to be a wilderness area. You might be saying to yourself, W.T.F.

 

Don't despair we have a certain political correctness on this sight and if you diverge in the slightest from the status quo you are branded as a tree hugging, kool aid drinking, liberal, pinko, commie freak. We need to all think alike and have no divergence of opinions. In essence we need to be the Stepford Hunters. So to help you along on all future discourse on this sight I came up with a primer to help you follow the party line.

 

Good

 

Rednecks

Roads

cows

Elk

Christianity

Lead bullets

Expandable Broadheads

300 mag and bigger

right wing talk radio

Chewing tobacco

Global warming

Other states Game and fish

trophy hunters

getting drawn

Blaming illegals for all our problems

driving

Making fun of Casey

 

Bad

Hippies

Wilderness areas

wolves

Condors

Science

Alloy bullets

Expandable broadheads

7/08 and smaller

Mr. Janet Napolitano

marijuana

stopping pollution

Arizona Game and fish

slob hunters

point system

Blaming Bush and republicans for all our problems

Walking

Not making fun of Casey

 

 

 

Please help Coues dog out and come up with your own, so we can be together on everything.

Bob

[AzHunt]

Sarcasm aside, what is your point Bobbyo?

[ajohunter]

I know this thread is about deer and cattle and has gotten off to a very deep path of discussion. I would like to throw out an example where cattle and ranching helped a species thrive. Back in 1939 when the Cabez Prieta Refuge was established there was a large number of cattle and the water and food sources to support them. Natural and man made. The decision was made by USFW to remove the cattle grazing rights and remove the water sources that were not natural. Prior to this decision the numbers of the currently endangered Sonoran Pronghorn was in the hundreds. After the removal of the water sources used by the ranchers the Pronghorn started to die off not surprisingy. At one time the herd dwindled down to less than 10 animals! Recently the USFW has established artificial water sources and a food plot to bring the numbers back up and now are around 40 animals after a transplant operation with animals from mexico. My point is that cattle and the ranchers that raise them do alot for the natural environment. I will get off my soap box now....

[JHAM357]

plain and simple. if you are out hunting your most favorite spot, and oh $hit there's a cow, you have a few options.

1- keep looking for deer

2- walk your butt off just a little more to get away from some cows (we're all coues hunters so walkin shouldnt be such a problem)

3- go find another dang spot the way you found the one you're at

4- if you decide to stay and keep bitchin about cows in "your" huntin spot, run down to the store and grab a box of em' tampon deals cause they belong in the place you're acting like.

 

just a few little options

[hunterofcoues]

Lark you are wrong!!!!

 

....go back next year and take a photo of the same place, it will most likely be a mirror image. grass on the other side, no grass on the grassy side....

 

cause the grassy side is national park, you can see that line from 10 miles away from the middle of Tucson

 

 

[bowsniper]

4- if you decide to stay and keep bitchin about cows in "your" huntin spot, run down to the store and grab a box of em' tampon deals cause they belong in the place you're acting like.

 

 

If you ever get your first coues, and it is at "your" own little honey hole, you might be feeling a little different about it when the cows come in. Or maybe you'll just need a box of tampons.

 

Mark

[GameHauler]

4- if you decide to stay and keep bitchin about cows in "your" huntin spot, run down to the store and grab a box of em' tampon deals cause they belong in the place you're acting like.

 

 

If you ever get your first coues, and it is at "your" own little honey hole, you might be feeling a little different about it when the cows come in. Or maybe you'll just need a box of tampons.

 

Mark

 

This was a hard one

To keep my mouth shut

[ajohunter]

4- if you decide to stay and keep bitchin about cows in "your" huntin spot, run down to the store and grab a box of em' tampon deals cause they belong in the place you're acting like.

 

 

If you ever get your first coues, and it is at "your" own little honey hole, you might be feeling a little different about it when the cows come in. Or maybe you'll just need a box of tampons.

 

Mark

 

I agree gamehauler, its getting deep around here....

 

[25-06]

Lark you are wrong!!!!

 

....go back next year and take a photo of the same place, it will most likely be a mirror image. grass on the other side, no grass on the grassy side....

 

cause the grassy side is national park, you can see that line from 10 miles away from the middle of Tucson

This grassy side aint national park....Its coues country.

[Jimmer Negamanee]

I vote we move this to the “political discussion” section where people know to enter at their own risk.

 

Thankfully, we on CWT.com are not a monolith. There are those on this site who, for example, think the idea of “re-wilding” is the worst idea ever and there are those who find the prospect intriguing.

 

But we all hunt and we all love coues country. We all can and should support whichever causes we wish with our money, our time and letters to the editor, etc. but to paraphrase Ben Franklin, when it come to hunting, we must all hang together or we will certainly hang apart.

 

(maybe that’s what bobbyo meant?)

 

[JHAM357]

4- if you decide to stay and keep bitchin about cows in "your" huntin spot, run down to the store and grab a box of em' tampon deals cause they belong in the place you're acting like.

 

 

If you ever get your first coues, and it is at "your" own little honey hole, you might be feeling a little different about it when the cows come in. Or maybe you'll just need a box of tampons.

 

Mark

first off, i didnt point at anyone in particular, it was just a statement. second, dont judge a man by his kills, just because i havent tagged a couse doesnt mean i havent hunted my butt off! sure i have come across cattle on my hunts and has yet to bother me in my little honey hole. im not saying if the time comes iwont be pissed, but griping about it doesnt change anything. so i could have left out the tampons, but again not pointed at anybody, and no i dont need a box. seriously though, thisis going on and on, and anybody can mak anything look or bad. all i simply meant is what i believe, if i dont like something yet dont do anything to about it, then i cant complain about it.

its not IF is WHEN, but thanks for the encouragement!