Deer & Cattle

[hime]

I would like to get some feedback on what others have seen regarding coues deer and cattle. Over the last few years I have found some decent spots that have held good numbers of deer. Often I go back later in the year or the following year and find that cattle have been released into the area and I only find a few deer. Has anyone seen similar behavior?

 

JDH

[skyhawkbowhunter]

I dont no about coues but it usually does not effect muleys. But i have seen coues deer with cattle in 36b

[scoutm]

I've glassed coues with cows present and in areas I've seen lots of coues I haven't been able to find a single one after the ranchers have moved their cattle into the pasture. So, I'm not sure it really matters.

[Benbrown]

On the ranch that I used to manage here in New Mexico, we shipped our calves in the fall and put the cows in the mountains for the winter. In years when we were running steers, we did the same--wintered our cattle in the mountains. The reason for this was that water was the limiting factor, not only with respect to where we could run cattle, but with respect to being able to gather them. After the monsoon rains, cattle in the mountains would be so scattered out that they were almost impossible to gather and move.

 

Of course, our Coues deer also lived in the mountains, and I never saw any indication that the presence of cattle had any significant effect on the distribution of the deer. The deer used most of the same watering points that the cattle did. They did tend to stay higher on the slopes than the cattle, and they moved a lot more between water, daytime bedding sites and feeding areas. We had a couple of valley pastures dwon low that typically had a fair number of Coues deer resident in September and early October when we were gathering to wean and ship calves and preg test the cows. By the time that the first hunt rolled around, these deer, like the cattle, had gone back to the mountains. I will say that the ranch had large pastures, especially in the mountains--the average size was probably somewhere between ten and fifteen thousand acres.

 

The only way that the presence of cattle might affect deer use would be due to associated disturbance from humans. If someone was riding or driving the pasture every day or so, checking the cattle and water and putting out salt and mineral, the deer might be inclined to move somewhere with less disturbance. This would especially be true in the cattle were confined in a relatively small pasture. We had a winter supplement program where we put out cubes three times a week, and the cowboys had strict instructions to distribute the feed up high, away from water, and in a different place each week. This was a lot more disturbance than the deer would have experienced under previous management, yet the deer could usually be found in the same places from year to year.

 

I found that during the fall, when deer are laying on fat for the winter and bucks are expending a lot of energy chasing does, that the quality (and quantity) of the vegetation seemed to have more effect on where deer could be found than anything else. If deer have a favorable intersperson of food, water, and cover, it's pretty hard to get them to leave a place. They may be harder to find as disturbance increases, but they are usually still there.

[azryan]

On the ranch that I used to manage here in New Mexico, we shipped our calves in the fall and put the cows in the mountains for the winter. In years when we were running steers, we did the same--wintered our cattle in the mountains. The reason for this was that water was the limiting factor, not only with respect to where we could run cattle, but with respect to being able to gather them. After the monsoon rains, cattle in the mountains would be so scattered out that they were almost impossible to gather and move.

 

Of course, our Coues deer also lived in the mountains, and I never saw any indication that the presence of cattle had any significant effect on the distribution of the deer. The deer used most of the same watering points that the cattle did. They did tend to stay higher on the slopes than the cattle, and they moved a lot more between water, daytime bedding sites and feeding areas. We had a couple of valley pastures dwon low that typically had a fair number of Coues deer resident in September and early October when we were gathering to wean and ship calves and preg test the cows. By the time that the first hunt rolled around, these deer, like the cattle, had gone back to the mountains. I will say that the ranch had large pastures, especially in the mountains--the average size was probably somewhere between ten and fifteen thousand acres.

 

The only way that the presence of cattle might affect deer use would be due to associated disturbance from humans. If someone was riding or driving the pasture every day or so, checking the cattle and water and putting out salt and mineral, the deer might be inclined to move somewhere with less disturbance. This would especially be true in the cattle were confined in a relatively small pasture. We had a winter supplement program where we put out cubes three times a week, and the cowboys had strict instructions to distribute the feed up high, away from water, and in a different place each week. This was a lot more disturbance than the deer would have experienced under previous management, yet the deer could usually be found in the same places from year to year.

 

I found that during the fall, when deer are laying on fat for the winter and bucks are expending a lot of energy chasing does, that the quality (and quantity) of the vegetation seemed to have more effect on where deer could be found than anything else. If deer have a favorable intersperson of food, water, and cover, it's pretty hard to get them to leave a place. They may be harder to find as disturbance increases, but they are usually still there.

 

That is some great info you provided...very interesting observations

 

[bowsniper]

I have abandoned two archery deer (coues) stands because of the addition of cattle near my stand. The does didn't seem to mind, but anything greater than a spike would not tolerate the cows, they were spooked away. I would think that carp bucks would be more tolerant, but I have no experience in that area. While cattle do not directly compete with deer for food, cattle do directly compete with elk for food. G&F keeps the AZ elk numbers down so the National Forest can also support forage for cattle. I have often wondered how big our elk heard in AZ could be if we did not have to support public lands cattle grazing. But with most of the commission being ranchers, I guess that we'll never know.

 

Mark

[WadeNAZ]

I have only experienced this once on a hunt, but I would have to agree with bowsniper. We had scouted and area that we knew held bucks and on the second day of our hunt the cattle had moved in. 2 more days in the area and all we saw were Does and a couple spikes. After a few more non-productive days elsewhere, we ended up hitting the same area the last day of our hunt (2 days after the cattle had moved out) I did finally glass up a decent buck from about 1000yds away on the same hills the cattle had been, but never could get close enough for a shot.

 

If I see Cows when I am hunting Coues. Im outa there...

[bobbyo]

In the dry areas (units ) that I hunt it is very comforting for me to see cows, because I know the deer have a water source near by. I have also used walking cattle to mask my own noise on stalks. Overall I feel cows have little effect on Coues behavior, unless it is a very large herd in a smaller pasture or canyon. Besides don't whitetails stay in their designated territories whether it is hunting pressure or moo moo pressure?

Bob

[azcouesandelk]

I can understand the deer moving out if the food began to dwindle but when cattle first move in I would say it wouldnt bother them. Just watch Extreme Coues and you will see Jay shoot a big buck going to water in a canyon that the cattle had been hammering!

[soazarcher]

I glassed up three coues bucks on wednesday right smack in the middle of a group of cows and calves

 

I already knew the bucks should be there, then i saw the cows, had second thoughts and glassed it anyway.

 

sure enough, they were right in the middle of the herd.

 

Then again, i recently abandoned a great coues water hole, due to a massive influx of cattle, all of a sudden not one coues deer drank there in two weeks!

 

 

SOOOO.....I have no idea

[ultramag]

I think it has alot to do with how many cows are in the area. The more the cows the less the game. ithat has been my experience.

[CouesWhitetail]

In the dry areas (units ) that I hunt it is very comforting for me to see cows, because I know the deer have a water source near by. I have also used walking cattle to mask my own noise on stalks. Overall I feel cows have little effect on Coues behavior, unless it is a very large herd in a smaller pasture or canyon. Besides don't whitetails stay in their designated territories whether it is hunting pressure or moo moo pressure?

Bob

 

 

I will 2nd most of what Bobbyo said here. I know when I see cattle that there is indeed water nearby and therefore should be some wildlife also. And I have certainly used cattle noise to mask my sneaking up on Coues (good-sized coues (103 inch) bowsniper, so I can't agree with you that big coues leave when there are cows). I think cattle are not going to drive deer out of any area unless they denude the vegetation so much as to make it worthless for deer.

 

Amanda

[synper100]

I will be hunting a canyon this

August archery season that holds a small herd of cows. There's water and they must share the resources. I will keep everyone posted on the results.

[.270]

bowsniper, where did you get all that info about keeping elk numbers down for cattle grazing? elk are their cashcows. and that all the commission were ranchers? i'm the last guy to defend em, but i don't know of a one that owns a cow. there was a female commissioner that was from a ranching family some years back, but i don't think she's on the commission anymore. i can think of another commissioner that was a rancher, but that was about 20 years ago. and i know plenty of guys who've had their cattle permit cut to increase the elk feed. i mean a bunch of em. most grazing permits aren't half what they were 30 years ago. just the opposite of what you're saying. the azgfd let the elk herd get completely out of hand about 15 years ago. there were so many elk it was nuts. the elk herd destroyed the deer herd in unit 1 and has had a real bad effect on deer in u2. i hunt the desert and usually see more elk and mt. bighorns than i do bucks. and with the wolf introduction, all the elk are is wolf food anyway, if you read what the usfws papers really say on the deal. it's one thing to cuss folks for something they did or didn't do that was bad or that you just disagree with. but just throwing out generalized statements that don't have any merit doesn't help any of us much. there are lot of units in Az. that no one would be able to hunt if it weren't for ranchers who own private land access, letting folks cross it. i've never seen where cattle had much impact on hunting. they've been here in big numbers for about 150 years and are as much a part of the ever changing habitat as anything. there's been a couple times that roundups have made me change my plans and one time when a rancher moved a buncha cattle into a small pasture, that was private land, just before he shipped em that sorta messed up a cow elk hunt for about 2 hours, until we moved about a mile and shot one. but i don't recall ever having cattle get in my way enough to worry about it. 99% of the waterholes and a buncha the salt folks hunt wouldn't be there if it weren't for a rancher first building it and then maintaining it. Lark.

[wklman]

my favorite sign down by Sonoita says "Grazin' prevents Blazin'." i don't believe cattle bother the deer at all. i've found deer whether theres cattle present or not. an old mature buck has his home territory and thats where he feels safest. he's not gonna move just because cattle have been brought into his area.

 

Wade