Game Cameras- G&F Agenda

[Saguaro]

13 minutes ago, Mogollonhunt555 said:

Lots of talk about not using cameras for the “taking” of wildlife. Anyone have the azgfd’s definition of “taking”?

It will be impossible to prove.  But that’s what bugs me.  We know when you check the images from the SD card, you skip right TF over pictures of does and coyotes and other wildlife and take pause on those pictures of big bucks and bulls. Then you go to the next camera and see if there’s any of the same bucks, then you note the time stamp and get on google earth and try to think like a Deer.  To me that is using cameras to take.  It could also mean people actually use the cameras to take.  You would have to be good to kill one with a plastic camera by smacking it over the head or delivering some other trauma by repeated blows to to animal.

[coues32]

42 minutes ago, ctafoya said:

Welcome to living in a blue state now. If you enjoy hunting bear and lion get one while you can. That will be next. California 2.0

Not sure, seems like its the only thing AZ game & fish manage , only tags they have cut

[derekgrantsmith]

Half the reason I have cameras is for the cool pics I get of bears, lions, hawks, javelina, coyotes, etc. I enjoy going out and checking them even if I don't plan on hunting that spot. I would enjoy them even if I didn't hunt.  I've rarely seen a water source littered with cameras in the units I've hunted.  I've always been able to find good areas with no other cameras.  I don't think its a problem in most units.  A blanket ban is not the answer!

[Delw]

One other thing. I believe if G&F set up a survey of licensed hunters ONLY  you would find that half if not more would want a ban of cameras.

[Saguaro]

I try to find positives.  When I first got into game cameras about 15 or 16 years ago, they were big, about 10” x 6” and they took C or D or those big 6volt batteries.  The current ones are much more small.  15 or 16 years from now, they should be the size of a watch.  That may make people feel better, at least they won’t notice as many.

[SirRoyal]

1 hour ago, Delw said:

One other thing. I believe if G&F set up a survey of licensed hunters ONLY  you would find that half if not more would want a ban of cameras.

So What about the other half? 

[elkaholic]

Times have changed.

Who remembers and used the Trail Timer.

Pulled and tied off a string attached to a clock in a little plastic box.

Deer / animal crossed the trail and you knew when he was there. 

They progressed to a 35mm camera and the first modern trail camera was invented.  Mid 80's.   

[6AYoteHunter]

1 hour ago, Delw said:

Ive hunted the strip since 82 during the archery season every year until the OTC was done. and then always was up on rifles season chasing varmits and 4 wheeling . spent a a huge amount of time up there. only thing I remember was the guides using ultra lights and some other aircraft back then, I dont remember running into anyone sitting at tanks all night. do remember a few guys running the roads and tanks with spotlights at night surveying the area before the hunts. but that spotlighting was done everywhere back then. some frowned on it some didnt. That being said me and a buddy sat at 2 tanks for a couple of days straight to see if the same deer came to one specific tank. which the did not theres a ton of tanks/seeps deer use and a desert muley can go up to 7 days with out hitting  water( thats what we were told at a seminar in the late 80's cant remember the name of the guy holding it.

Explain the "scientific opinion" aspect I confused how science can be used.

bottom line there are xx amount of tags sold for each unit. so thats the number of deer that G&F  feel that can be killed, granted they are using xx amount of a success rate. but with cameras and tons of Cameras they may have to drop the amount of tags due to success rates. They dropped the OTC archery season because they said too many deer were getting killed. I never saw a decline in bucks in the last 2-3 years but did see a huge increase in traffic the 1st week and a huge increase in wounded bucks. almost 50% of the hunters that I ran into said they or there buddy stuck one but couldn't find it some didnt even bother looking for it because the amount of targets were plenty.  Kinda like elk hunting in unit 8 or 9

 

I am very surprised you didn't encountered the "water campers" on the strip. We encountered them numerous times. 

Ask anyone who tries to do wildlife counts. It is difficult with limited funding to properly assess how units are doing. Scientific community uses trail cameras for lots of research. Example is the mtn lion survey program in the Kofa to help with bighorn issues down there. Anyways just in the last 4 years I have been asked by G&F employees in 12A, 23, 9, 6A, 6B and 19A if I had cameras or had spent lots of time glassing. I find it more enjoyable to spend more time in the woods glassing personally. They said they wanted to know if I had an idea of animal counts. They recorded in length details of what I reported. Cameras can have their benefits in these counts. Especially with random species like coatimundi and ringtail cat population growth in 6A over the last 5 years. 2 G&F employees told me that they had no idea that either species existed in unit despite themselves running cameras. 

I do think less cameras will allow random animals to slip threw the cracks in units with only man made water sources. It is extremely annoying when 5 or 6 guides and 10 other random groups are all targeting one bull or buck.

They may need to drop tag numbers due to poachers, cell phones, radios, rangefinders, spotting scopes, binos, scopes, rifles, bows, calls, camo, trucks, trailers, atvs, boots, backpacks, water bottles, etc. So no perfect balance can really be achieved. 

 

[UggRedBilly]

1 hour ago, Delw said:

One other thing. I believe if G&F set up a survey of licensed hunters ONLY  you would find that half if not more would want a ban of cameras.

Where is this survey? I'd gladly take it

[javihammer]

23 minutes ago, Delw said:

One other thing. I believe if G&F set up a survey of licensed hunters ONLY  you would find that half if not more would want a ban of cameras.

I agree 100%, a survey by AZGFD would show the real sentiment about trail cameras in Arizona.

 I did a simple google search of the people that were listed as being at the meeting where Commissioner Sparks advocated for them in 2018 (it was posted earlier today by trophyseeker). The people were listed as members of the public in the meeting notes.  I did a google search with their name followed by arizona hunting.  Out of the 16 pro camera attendees, here is what my simple search revealed.

- Three were advisory members of a Bighorn sheep Committee (probably not your average hunters if they are focused on Bighorns, they may have been at the meeting for some other reason or ?)

- Eight were guides, most affilliated with the big outfitter that flaunts their camera inventory on facebook (someone posted pictures of it in an earlier reply to this thread)

- One was an Arizona attorney, he could have been a hunter or representing the pro camera side or possibly both.

- One was the leader of an outdoor 501c3 that probably has a cozy relationship with the guides that help with donated tags. 

- Three of them were mysteries, at least using my simple search. 

If the Commission honestly considered the pro camera attendees to be simple public citizen hunters they were mislead. 

A few more thoughts on that meeting. A fairly reliable senior member of this forum doubted the claim that all of the trophy groups were contacted as Sparks claimed back then. He is in a pretty good position to make that judgement since he would have been the primary contact for one of the groups. Since one of the basis for trail camera regulation was that they violated fair chase this claim would likely have been taken into serious consideration by the Commission at the time. I also found the claim that trail cameras assist disabled hunters to be curious, I am guessing most disabled hunters are thrilled to shoot a mature animal and have little need to scrutinize their racks on a trail camera first. Maybe the guides are looking for trophies to post in their marketing photos but I doubt trail cameras really add that much to the experience for disabled people. I think that was another formulaic baseless line of crap. 

Bottom line, if the pro camera guys approach this like they did they did the last time they are going to get steamrolled this time. That weak bullcrap isnt going to hold water the next time. 

And one more note for the guys claiming they will fail to comply. If you have or have had an Arizona hunting license in the past few years you are going to have a heck of a time claiming you arent using your cameras for hunting in the future. You  will be forced to choose whether you are a criminal, a hunter or a wildlife photographer. Only two of those are law abiding citizens so the turning law abiding citizens into criminals line is also a load as well. 

Ryan

-  

- 

 

[SirRoyal]

28 minutes ago, javihammer said:

I agree 100%, a survey by AZGFD would show the real sentiment about trail cameras in Arizona.

 I did a simple google search of the people that were listed as being at the meeting where Commissioner Sparks advocated for them in 2018 (it was posted earlier today by trophyseeker). The people were listed as members of the public in the meeting notes.  I did a google search with their name followed by arizona hunting.  Out of the 16 pro camera attendees, here is what my simple search revealed.

- Three were advisory members of a Bighorn sheep Committee (probably not your average hunters if they are focused on Bighorns, they may have been at the meeting for some other reason or ?)

- Eight were guides, most affilliated with the big outfitter that flaunts their camera inventory on facebook (someone posted pictures of it in an earlier reply to this thread)

- One was an Arizona attorney, he could have been a hunter or representing the pro camera side or possibly both.

- One was the leader of an outdoor 501c3 that probably has a cozy relationship with the guides that help with donated tags. 

- Three of them were mysteries, at least using my simple search. 

If the Commission honestly considered the pro camera attendees to be simple public citizen hunters they were mislead. 

A few more thoughts on that meeting. A fairly reliable senior member of this forum doubted the claim that all of the trophy groups were contacted as Sparks claimed back then. He is in a pretty good position to make that judgement since he would have been the primary contact for one of the groups. Since one of the basis for trail camera regulation was that they violated fair chase this claim would likely have been taken into serious consideration by the Commission at the time. I also found the claim that trail cameras assist disabled hunters to be curious, I am guessing most disabled hunters are thrilled to shoot a mature animal and have little need to scrutinize their racks on a trail camera first. Maybe the guides are looking for trophies to post in their marketing photos but I doubt trail cameras really add that much to the experience for disabled people. I think that was another formulaic baseless line of crap. 

Bottom line, if the pro camera guys approach this like they did they did the last time they are going to get steamrolled this time. That weak bullcrap isnt going to hold water the next time. 

And one more note for the guys claiming they will fail to comply. If you have or have had an Arizona hunting license in the past few years you are going to have a heck of a time claiming you arent using your cameras for hunting in the future. You  will be forced to choose whether you are a criminal, a hunter or a wildlife photographer. Only two of those are law abiding citizens so the turning law abiding citizens into criminals line is also a load as well. 

Ryan

-  

- 

 

Nothing worse than someone thats already byass toward trailcams and guides to have an objective motive in this trial of public opinion.  Your Dismissed!!! 

 

[Delw]

2 hours ago, SirRoyal said:

So What about the other half? 

They want to eliminate guides ;)

1 hour ago, SirRoyal said:

Nothing worse than someone thats already byass toward trailcams and guides to have an objective motive in this trial of public opinion.  Your Dismissed!!! 

 

just like you???

[Delw]

1 hour ago, 6AYoteHunter said:

I am very surprised you didn't encountered the "water campers" on the strip. We encountered them numerous times. 

Ask anyone who tries to do wildlife counts. It is difficult with limited funding to properly assess how units are doing. Scientific community uses trail cameras for lots of research. Example is the mtn lion survey program in the Kofa to help with bighorn issues down there. Anyways just in the last 4 years I have been asked by G&F employees in 12A, 23, 9, 6A, 6B and 19A if I had cameras or had spent lots of time glassing. I find it more enjoyable to spend more time in the woods glassing personally. They said they wanted to know if I had an idea of animal counts. They recorded in length details of what I reported. Cameras can have their benefits in these counts. Especially with random species like coatimundi and ringtail cat population growth in 6A over the last 5 years. 2 G&F employees told me that they had no idea that either species existed in unit despite themselves running cameras. 

I do think less cameras will allow random animals to slip threw the cracks in units with only man made water sources. It is extremely annoying when 5 or 6 guides and 10 other random groups are all targeting one bull or buck.

They may need to drop tag numbers due to poachers, cell phones, radios, rangefinders, spotting scopes, binos, scopes, rifles, bows, calls, camo, trucks, trailers, atvs, boots, backpacks, water bottles, etc. So no perfect balance can really be achieved. 

 

Actually i didnt, never even heard of water campers till now, well and "nobull" story about a recent buck.

Oh good point on the scientific part of that, That never occurred to me.

as far as poachers. I dont think poachers make a huge difference in the reduction or even close to lions, the problem is stupid kids and people out shooting everything, those people arent poachers per say there just killers.

on the rest you forgot the most important part the Internet that screws up hunting.

 

[Delw]

quite a few Guides are the ones that Created this mess, Thank them.

[azbirdhunter88]

4 hours ago, SirRoyal said:

 We have prove that Trail cameras are the least intrusive form of Surveillance on wildlife. 

There will be many many more paid Guides sitting for up to 45 days on animals . 

As far as selling wildlife after it is found thats another whole issue. 

Lots of people dont enjoy seeing more people in the woods either. 

You just said animals are startled by trail cameras dude.