Trying to obtain high FOC - without killing velocity

[MULEPACKHUNTER]

Play around and spend money if you want but your set up is fine where it is. I went into this and did some testing and ended back where I started. I made my own custom inserts at 35 grains and shoot 100 grain heads so im 135 up front, have no idea what the percentage foc is but it paper tunes dead on and goes up to the fletchings in targets.. A little trick if you do start playing with front weight is to add wraps to the back end if you get underspined, I had 8 in wraps on mine with 4 fletch and that's the best I got until I dropped the front weight. 

I just need to shoot better like was mentioned above. I shoot too many different bows also. (Easton fmj 29 in cut, 3 fletch with 6 in wraps 35 grn inserts and 100 head at 502 grns total) 72 lbs draw @29 1/2 hit about 278 fps

I wish I had a sound meter to see numbers but I can tell a big difference from lighter arrows in noise

[recurveman]

FOC is one variable.   Honestly, after shooting a bow for the past 40+ years I would first shoot the broadhead that you are hoping to shoot and see how they group.   I'm a big fixed blade fan and I'm typically more worried about how my broadheads fly than field points.   Speed is also great but I think the focus of speed is way over blown.    I shot my first deer with a 32# bow shooting an easton aluminium 1516.   There is know way my arrows were doing 150FPS.   Personally, I want a very quiet and accurate bow.    Have you ever listened to Randy Ulmer?    Typically the speed of his arrows is in the 265 FPS range when hunting.    I haven't shot my bow through a chronograph but I would guess I'm also in that range.    I'm shooting an easton full metal jacket about 29" long with 4 vanes and a 100 grain slick trick broadhead.   I'm shooting 62# (though my bow can go to 70 and I could easily pull that) and my arrows are also on the very, very stiff side.    I always like an arrow to be on the stiff side.    A weak setup will be a bit faster but isn't as accurate typically.   Don't get caught up in all the measurements that are out there.   If you can shoot a 5" group at 70 yards then you are doing fine.   If you can shoot a 5" group with broadheads at that distance then perfect.    Now just figure out how to shoot accurately with an animal standing there.    It's all about the moment of truth.........not the speed or FOC. 

Heck my wife killed a bull elk two years ago with a bow shooting an full metal jacket arrow at 209FPS.   That elk never asked her about speed or FOC.   Though she is really accurate with her bow!!!!!!!       

[high rise hunter]

On 10/10/2020 at 8:05 PM, WHT_MTNMAN said:

About the only way to significantly increase FOC without adding a bunch of overall  weight is to use a small diameter arrow with low gpi.  Ive been very happy with my Goldtip airstrikes but they are pricey. They come with about everything you need. But you can add stainless steel inserts or 125gr and that helps..

I agree with wht_mtnman here. I shoot victory VAPS at 8.7 gpi. Without spending more than a minute on this you could lessen your arrow weight ~22 grains with these shafts, shoot 125g broadheads vs 100, increase FOC and keep nearly the same total arrow weight.  Also, theoretically you should get better penetration with 4mm shafts than the 5s.

[bigorange]

It’s fun to tweak numbers and figure stuff out like this...if you like this stuff. Sort of like reloading vs shooting boxed ammo. I ran through a bunch of numbers, weighing arrows, and determining the balance point to measure my FOC. As others have said a simple change from 100 to 125-grain heads did the trick for me. Numbers showed a decent increase in FOC that I can’t remember (again if you like numbers like me you can run the calculations LoL) but more importantly my groups at longer distances tightened up almost immediately. I’m more interested in the improved accuracy that resulted and less about any impact or change to speed. 

[MULEPACKHUNTER]

I did a test yesterday with arrow straightness. Small test so surely not something to live by. I had some arrows I spun on my jig and they were bent about .010 or more towards the front end. I separated 4 arrows from the good ones but built them the same as the rest and marked them as squirrel or rabbit arrows. I shot about 9 arrows at a time and decided to see if there was noticeable inaccuracies with the tweaked arrows vs the straight. Shooting both field points and 2 blade fixed heads after 6 sets of shots I couldn’t see any difference at all out to 40 yards. I figured as much but just wanted to really look at it. Like me most people can’t out shoot their equipment. 

[creed]

feathers

[muledeerarea33?]

Does anyone spell anything out anymore? People are just supposed to know what these abbreviations and slang forum talk are! For Pete sake! Spend the extra 10 seconds to spell out terms so us young guys who act old don’t have to google every term and add “hunting” after!! So we don’t get a weird porn thing! Even though that’s ok too!

[mattys281]

If your bows draw length is 28.5 and your current arrow is 28.25, probably the easiest thing you could do is cut 0.5-1.0” off the arrow length and switch to heavier inserts or (simpler yet) just screw on heavier heads.  Lots of companies are making 150 grain broadheads now and some are making 200+.  I’d make that arrow as short as you can and load up the front end, just make sure there’s at least a half inch of arrow shaft in front of the contact point of your rest.  They old school wisdom I was taught way back when was that you want at least an inch in front of the rest, but that was back when bows had softer back walls and you could draw an extra half inch just by pulling against the cams.  It’s not that big of a deal anymore with the modern solid wall bows that have limb stops and/or cable stops on them.  Anyhow, if there’s more than a half inch of shaft in front of you rest at full draw you can shorten it up a bit.  I shout 27.5” long shafts off a 29” draw bow.
 

there’s some real advantages to running a little higher FOC, namely if you hit something hard like a shoulder blade or leg bone.  An arrow that is front heavy is usually more successful at busting the bone and then pulling the rest of the arrow through, compared to a more balanced arrow where the arrow head just kind of stops and then the back end keeps trying to push, but most of the energy is soaked up in flexing the shaft. 
 

however, I think that’s only part of it.  I’ve seen some hard hits destroy broadheads and splinter carbon shafts.  I think one of the best ways to add FOC is to reinforce the end of the arrow with steel inserts and footers.  Steel inserts are not only much heavier than aluminum, but they are also much more rigid and adding them can have the same effect as shortening your arrow.  Brass is a little heavier than steel, but steel is much more rigid and strong, so I stick with it.  
 

this set up is a 505 grain arrow built with ironwill 50 grain steel inserts and 25 grain footers plus an all steel Broadhead.  Foc is 13%, leaves the bow at 265 FPS and makes a boat load of energy and (more importantly slug).  I built it for elk, but didn’t get to test it on one, so now some unfortunate whitetail is going to find out how it works.  It hits dang hard and is super forgiving and easy to shoot.

 

[oz31p]

2 minutes ago, mattys281 said:

If your bows draw length is 28.5 and your current arrow is 28.25, probably the easiest thing you could do is cut 0.5-1.0” off the arrow length and switch to heavier inserts or (simpler yet) just screw on heavier heads.  Lots of companies are making 150 grain broadheads now and some are making 200+.  I’d make that arrow as short as you can and load up the front end, just make sure there’s at least a half inch of arrow shaft in front of the contact point of your rest.  They old school wisdom I was taught way back when was that you want at least an inch in front of the rest, but that was back when bows had softer back walls and you could draw an extra half inch just by pulling against the cams.  It’s not that big of a deal anymore with the modern solid wall bows that have limb stops and/or cable stops on them.  Anyhow, if there’s more than a half inch of shaft in front of you rest at full draw you can shorten it up a bit.  I shout 27.5” long shafts off a 29” draw bow.
 

there’s some real advantages to running a little higher FOC, namely if you hit something hard like a shoulder blade or leg bone.  An arrow that is front heavy is usually more successful at busting the bone and then pulling the rest of the arrow through, compared to a more balanced arrow where the arrow head just kind of stops and then the back end keeps trying to push, but most of the energy is soaked up in flexing the shaft. 
 

however, I think that’s only part of it.  I’ve seen some hard hits destroy broadheads and splinter carbon shafts.  I think one of the best ways to add FOC is to reinforce the end of the arrow with steel inserts and footers.  Steel inserts are not only much heavier than aluminum, but they are also much more rigid and adding them can have the same effect as shortening your arrow.  Brass is a little heavier than steel, but steel is much more rigid and strong, so I stick with it.  
 

this set up is a 505 grain arrow built with ironwill 50 grain steel inserts and 25 grain footers plus an all steel Broadhead.  Foc is 13%, leaves the bow at 265 FPS and makes a boat load of energy and (more importantly slug).  I built it for elk, but didn’t get to test it on one, so now some unfortunate whitetail is going to find out how it works.  It hits dang hard and is super forgiving and easy to shoot.

 

But but I read that .....

[Swivelhead]

6 hours ago, MULEPACKHUNTER said:

I did a test yesterday with arrow straightness. Small test so surely not something to live by. I had some arrows I spun on my jig and they were bent about .010 or more towards the front end. I separated 4 arrows from the good ones but built them the same as the rest and marked them as squirrel or rabbit arrows. I shot about 9 arrows at a time and decided to see if there was noticeable inaccuracies with the tweaked arrows vs the straight. Shooting both field points and 2 blade fixed heads after 6 sets of shots I couldn’t see any difference at all out to 40 yards. I figured as much but just wanted to really look at it. Like me most people can’t out shoot their equipment. 

I agree.  So many variables in archery it's almost mind boggling.  To prove FOC is a contributing factor for optimum arrow flight requires a lot of equipment.  High quality arrows need to be weighed, spine tested, etc. to remove as much variation as possible from arrow to arrow.  The bow needs to be well tuned  Then, the human factor must be mitigated so you'll need a shooting machine.  Probably need to do the testing indoors to eliminate wind, temperature, humidity variation.  For most, this type of testing is not realistic.  Forturnately, others have done this testing and reported their results.  FWIW, do as you please.

[mattys281]

1 minute ago, oz31p said:

But but I read that .....

I’ve blow through muke deer and coues deer with 385 grain lightning bolts before.  When I do my job and put it in the rib cage it’s easy.  After I made a bad hit and lost a deer it got me thinking to beef things up a little.  To each their own... 

[Swivelhead]

15 minutes ago, mattys281 said:

If your bows draw length is 28.5 and your current arrow is 28.25, probably the easiest thing you could do is cut 0.5-1.0” off the arrow length and switch to heavier inserts or (simpler yet) just screw on heavier heads.  Lots of companies are making 150 grain broadheads now and some are making 200+.  I’d make that arrow as short as you can and load up the front end, just make sure there’s at least a half inch of arrow shaft in front of the contact point of your rest.  They old school wisdom I was taught way back when was that you want at least an inch in front of the rest, but that was back when bows had softer back walls and you could draw an extra half inch just by pulling against the cams.  It’s not that big of a deal anymore with the modern solid wall bows that have limb stops and/or cable stops on them.  Anyhow, if there’s more than a half inch of shaft in front of you rest at full draw you can shorten it up a bit.  I shout 27.5” long shafts off a 29” draw bow.
 

there’s some real advantages to running a little higher FOC, namely if you hit something hard like a shoulder blade or leg bone.  An arrow that is front heavy is usually more successful at busting the bone and then pulling the rest of the arrow through, compared to a more balanced arrow where the arrow head just kind of stops and then the back end keeps trying to push, but most of the energy is soaked up in flexing the shaft. 
 

however, I think that’s only part of it.  I’ve seen some hard hits destroy broadheads and splinter carbon shafts.  I think one of the best ways to add FOC is to reinforce the end of the arrow with steel inserts and footers.  Steel inserts are not only much heavier than aluminum, but they are also much more rigid and adding them can have the same effect as shortening your arrow.  Brass is a little heavier than steel, but steel is much more rigid and strong, so I stick with it.  
 

this set up is a 505 grain arrow built with ironwill 50 grain steel inserts and 25 grain footers plus an all steel Broadhead.  Foc is 13%, leaves the bow at 265 FPS and makes a boat load of energy and (more importantly slug).  I built it for elk, but didn’t get to test it on one, so now some unfortunate whitetail is going to find out how it works.  It hits dang hard and is super forgiving and easy to shoot.

 

Solid post.  Heavy arrows tame radical bows. 

[Buckwheat893]

Thanks for all the input. After lots of research and talking to some experienced guys and pro shop employees, I have info that others with the same “issue” may find useful. Victory archery seems to offer the most “FOC friendly” arrows I can find. If you are around 28.5” draw and pulling 70 pounds, with a bow in the neighborhood of 330 fps IBO, these are the 2 best options I can come up with. hope it helps someone: 

449.85 grains / 277 fps / 76.66 ft lbs / 15.0% FOC 28.5” Victory VAP 166 
300 spine 8.7 gpi 
125 grain point 
SHOK aluminum insert 50 grains 
Blazer 2” vanes x3 18.9 grains  
F nock 8 grains

400.8 grains / 293 fps / 76.42 ft lbs / 17.1% FOC 28.5” Victory RIP XV 
300 spine 7.0 gpi 
125 grain point 
SHOK aluminum insert 50 grains 
Blazer 2” vanes x3 18.9 grains
F nock 8 grains