AGFD - Don’t forget the non-lead ammo

[elkhunter]

2 minutes ago, Flatlander said:

Pay some college intern to drive them off the plateau, from there, NOTAGS is probably right.  My guess is Aliberto’s.

I was a college intern that drove bucks accidentally harvested during the jr hunt to a processor in Flagstaff, always wondered bout the guts. 

[Outdoor Writer]

2 minutes ago, elkhunter said:

I was a college intern that drove bucks accidentally harvested during the jr hunt to a processor in Flagstaff, always wondered bout the guts. 

I'm only guessing, but maybe they cart them off somewhere, douse in gasoline and burn.  I suppose it all could be processed into pet food if they had a way to remove the bullet fragments. There is a Purina plant in Flagstaff, no??

[IA Born]

I texted my condor recovery program colleague at AGFD a little while ago regarding the disposition of the gut piles.  Its an excellent question that I should actually know off the top of my head.  They are taken immediately to either the Kanab or Flagstaff landfill and buried immediately, so as to not have them available for consumption by anything.  To everyone who has made the switch, even if for that hunt alone, or packed out gut piles, I want to say THANK YOU!  It may sound cheesy, but you guys and gals are truly my conservation heroes.  The lead poisoning goes way beyond condors, though.  Every year, 1000s (yes, thousands) of other raptors, including bald and golden eagles, are lost to the same lead poisoning as condors.  All kinds of other scavengers, both mammal and bird, are killed by lead poisoning from bullet fragments every year.  I was asked to take over the condor recovery program for our office because I hunt and use/understand nonlead bullets in all of my hunting rifles.  My predecessor was neither and didn't think highly of hunters, especially those who didn't use non-lead ammo.  That's not me.

One of the biggest arguments I ever hear is that copper bullets don't expand on small game.  My son shot his first buck last October (Coues) at 375 yards with 140gr Barnes TTSX in his 7mm-08.  The exit wound was at least two inches diameter at that distance.  Last January, he shot his javelina using my M1 Garand, loaded with Barnes 150gr VOR-TX ammo at 75 yards.  The exit wound was softball sized.  Both small-bodied animals with gaping exit wounds, indicative of full expansion, no matter the velocity.  Anyone that is ever traveling through Flagstaff and wants to talk condors, conservation (in general), and non-lead ammo, just hit me up and I will buy the coffee (quit drinking 7 years ago November).  All I ever do is present the science as we know it and encourage you to do your own research after that to make your own informed decisions.  No judgement, no name-calling; just a good discussion about how we, as hunters, can truly be the ultimate conservationists (and free coffee for you at a good coffee shop).

In something related, everyone is (or should be) aware that the EPA has set lead levels for what constitutes lead poisoning in humans.  The following is the abstract of a study that was published in 2009 regarding lead fragmentation in the venison we eat.  Keep in mind that lead poisoning is considered cumulative and builds up in our bodies over time and that several studies have documented lead fragments in game carcasses through x-rays over 20 inches from the point of impact.  If you are interested in the whole article, I will gladly send it to you.  Again, this is not intended to start an argument or even a debate; just to merely present some data and, hopefully, get people to think about the issue.  I would like to point out, again, my offer for a good cup of coffee.

Hunt et al.:  2009 Lead Bullet Fragments in Venison from Rifle-Killed Deer: Potential for Human Dietary Exposure

"Human consumers of wildlife killed with lead ammunition may be exposed to health risks associated with lead ingestion.  This hypothesis is based on published studies showing elevated blood lead concentrations in subsistence hunter populations, retention of ammunition residues in the tissues of hunter-killed animals, and systemic, cognitive, and behavioral disorders associated with human lead body burdens once considered safe.  Our objective was to determine the incidence and bioavailability of lead bullet fragments in hunter-killed venison, a widely-eaten food among hunters and their families.  We radiographed 30 eviscerated carcasses of White-tailed  Deer (Odocoileus  virginianus) shot  by hunters  with standard  lead-core, copper-jacketed bullets under  normal  hunting  conditions.  All carcasses showed metal fragments (geometric mean = 136 fragments, range = 15–409) and widespread fragment dispersion.  We took each carcass to a separate meat processor and fluoroscopically scanned the resulting meat  packages; fluoroscopy revealed metal fragments in the ground meat packages of 24 (80%) of the 30 deer; 32% of 234 ground meat packages contained at least one fragment.  Fragments were identified as lead by ICP in 93% of 27 samples.  Isotope ratios of lead in meat matched the ratios of bullets, and differed from background lead in  bone.  We fed fragment-containing  venison to four pigs to test bioavailability; four controls received venison without fragments from the same deer.  Mean blood lead concentrations in pigs peaked at 2.29 mg/dL (maximum 3.8 mg/dL) 2 days following ingestion of fragment-containing venison, significantly higher than the 0.63 mg/dL averaged by controls.  We conclude that people risk exposure to bioavailable lead from bullet fragments when they eat venison from deer killed with standard lead-based rifle bullets and processed under normal procedures.  At risk in the U.S. are some ten million hunters, their families, and low-income beneficiaries of venison donations."
 

[muledeerarea33?]

I’m not sure if solid copper expands well in small game or if cavitation takes over. Either way, this rabbit was 80 yards with a solid copper bullet. I imagine a deer or javelina would be less devastating but dead none the less.

 

[trphyhntr]

Itt: hippies

[bigorange]

6 hours ago, NOTAGS said:

My experience with the non lead ammo made me start using full time.  The Barnes bullets expand, retain weight, and deliver quick kills.  Plus most of my rifles shoot it lights out.  I have one that doesnt, so I dont take it to the Kaibab.  Down side is the copper fouling.  You dont want to shoot as much once you get to do a deep clean or two.

Same here. My .270 shot Barnes better than anything else I’d tried. 

[CatfishKev]

8 hours ago, NOTAGS said:

My experience with the non lead ammo made me start using full time.  The Barnes bullets expand, retain weight, and deliver quick kills.  Plus most of my rifles shoot it lights out.  I have one that doesnt, so I dont take it to the Kaibab.  Down side is the copper fouling.  You dont want to shoot as much once you get to do a deep clean or two.

Been pondering the switch myself for the family rifles.  I was on the fence honestly. Then a post came up awhile ago where I believe it was mattsy said he comes across eagles a lot with lead poisoning in his line of work,  made me think maybe it's not just a lib angle.  Wish I remembered the thread though. Then cousedeerhntr who had the cow buff hunt right before mine killed with Barnes, perfect expansion.  

If we are really conservationists I certainly think copper is worth a try.  

[IA Born]

2 hours ago, CatfishKev said:

Been pondering the switch myself for the family rifles.  I was on the fence honestly. Then a post came up awhile ago where I believe it was mattsy said he comes across eagles a lot with lead poisoning in his line of work,  made me think maybe it's not just a lib angle.  Wish I remembered the thread though. Then cousedeerhntr who had the cow buff hunt right before mine killed with Barnes, perfect expansion.  

If we are really conservationists I certainly think copper is worth a try.  

Its far from a lib/hippie angle. Most every colleague I work with in the condor recovery program are die-hard hunters and far from liberals. And I can provide you all the peer-reviewed science papers on the lead poisoning/eagle issue you want from reputable scientists.

[ThomC]

Where is the pandemic of people dying who have eaten millions of birds, animals shot with lead.  Your socialist/communist science just doesnt stand the smell test.  Please dont quote the totally biased scientists? at Carefree, their job requires that they spout the party line.  Follow the Money and power.  🙄  😷 

 

[CouesPursuit]

9 hours ago, CatfishKev said:

Been pondering the switch myself for the family rifles.  I was on the fence honestly. Then a post came up awhile ago where I believe it was mattsy said he comes across eagles a lot with lead poisoning in his line of work,  made me think maybe it's not just a lib angle.  Wish I remembered the thread though. Then cousedeerhntr who had the cow buff hunt right before mine killed with Barnes, perfect expansion.  

If we are really conservationists I certainly think copper is worth a try.  

 

[Saguaro]

I like the Barnes TSX.  They shoot very well for me.   I don’t think it’s liberal crap.  It is if there’s buzz about banning all lead bullets, but not for a lead study like this.  I consider this a lesson learned.

[Flatlander]

2 hours ago, ThomC said:

Where is the pandemic of people dying who have eaten millions of birds, animals shot with lead.

 

Well lead poisoning is cumulative and impacts brain function, so maybe just look around decide for yourself ...

[CatfishKev]

1 hour ago, CouesPursuit said:

 

Ahh, yeah that was the one

[AZLance]

screw condors! what a waste of tax dollars!

[520HUNT]

we predator hunt up there every year, and lead bullets seam to work just fine on the 100s of coyotes and bobcats we encounter.