Holdovers versus Come-Ups.

[firstcoueswas80]

5 hours ago, yotebuster said:

For as much as the consensus seems that dialing is the way to go, I can’t figure out why FFP scopes are such a big deal to people besides being tacticool.  I dial every shot over 250 yards.  Every one.  I use all SFP scopes as there are too many negative trade offs with FFP.  I actually have found it hard to find good SFP scopes and more importantly clean reticles.  I have special ordered my last two scopes with essentially duplex reticles in them as I know for a fact I won’t be using the subtensions and I’ve found that in the heat of the moment there’s just too much “going on” in most modern reticles. 

You took the words out of my mouth. 

 

Idgaf about FFP. My perfect scope is SFP with a standard duplex reticle. (Zeiss hd5)

[recurveman]

The perfect scope would have lines down the post for every 50-100 yard increments that perfectly match my gun and bullet combination.   If you could figure that out for me that would be great.  It would also be great if the scope was a range finder and could tell me what line to use.    Would like the glass to be perfect and keep it under $300 dollars.   I'll be the first guy to buy a few!!!!!     

[Dr.308]

I agree. The only argument I can give for using holdovers is speed. The military guys like them close in, like out to 500 or 600 yards because they allow them to engage different targets at different ranges quickly. We  teach both holdovers and comeups to everybody.  I feel like everybody should train on both and use what works best for them.  

[loboscout]

I can hold or dial.
I can dial on elevation to my 100 yards zero, and then I hold under three inches at anything inside 150 yards, and hold the crosshair for everything else point blank out to 400ish yards. Beyond 400 yards, I can range and hold the rest or finish dialing.
I can do lots of things, whether it is a second focal plane or first focal plane or MIL vs. MOA.
I learned mostly on second focal plane/MOA scopes to start, but then started shooting with and learning from people with first focal plane and MIL scopes.

Both can be deadly accurate. What some people don't realize is that their turret and their reticle both need to be confirmed, so if you dial and can't figure it out, it might be your scope tracking. Not all turrets dial 100% of the amount, so your 25 MOA you dialed on might only be 23 or 24.5. It matters at far distances. So, until you confirm whether your scope tracks 100%, dialing could put you off by as much as 5%. A calibration error is not uncommon up to 2%, even for expensive scopes. Additionally, the further you hold in the reticle, towards the outer third of the glass, the more optical error you are inducing. There are also perception issues. Things like parallax errors also come into play.

So, when it comes to deciding whether to dial or hold, you have to know the possible errors and how to correct for or eliminate them. Fortunately, inside 500 yards, it really doesn't matter given the limited drop and relative size of the kill zone of deer. Beyond that, the errors start to compound and magnify. And, believe it or not, the way your manage recoil will mean hits or misses once you start stacking on the yardage. A big recoiling and light hunting rifle exploits weakness in shooting form.

There are strengths and weaknesses to all systems. I prefer first focal plane and milradians, but am just as confident and competent behind my buddies' second focal plane and MOA scopes. They are just different.

Yes, there are people who buy stuff cause it is "tacticool" and don't learn the system. I don't like those people either. But, if you think that FFP and mils are for "tacticool" then that tells me you don't really understand what I am doing with it, or you just really like your system cause it works best for you. I get that, and as long as you understand your second focal plane and MOA, it doesn't matter. I don't call SFP and MOA guys "fudds" or other derogatory terms, just because I disagree and prefer a way that works faster for me.

Bottom line, is pick a system that works for you and learn it. It will do everything you need. I can hold or dial.
I can dial on elevation to my 100 yards zero, and then I hold under three inches at anything inside 150 yards, and hold the crosshair for everything else point blank out to 400ish yards. Beyond 400 yards, I can range and hold the rest or finish dialing.
I can do lots of things, whether it is a second focal plane or first focal plane or MIL vs. MOA.
I learned mostly on second focal plane/MOA scopes to start, but then started shooting with and learning from people with first focal plane and MIL scopes.

Both can be deadly accurate. What some people don't realize is that their turret and their reticle both need to be confirmed, so if you dial and can't figure it out, it might be your scope tracking. Not all turrets dial 100% of the amount, so your 25 MOA you dialed on might only be 23 or 24.5. It matters at far distances. So, until you confirm whether your scope tracks 100%, dialing could put you off by as much as 5%. A calibration error is not uncommon up to 2%, even for expensive scopes. Additionally, the further you hold in the reticle, towards the outer third of the glass, the more optical error you are inducing. There are also perception issues. Things like parallax errors also come into play.

So, when it comes to deciding whether to dial or hold, you have to know the possible errors and how to correct for or eliminate them. Fortunately, inside 500 yards, it really doesn't matter given the limited drop and relative size of the kill zone of deer. Beyond that, the errors start to compound and magnify. And, believe it or not, the way your manage recoil will mean hits or misses once you start stacking on the yardage. A big recoiling and light hunting rifle exploits weakness in shooting form.

There are strengths and weaknesses to all systems. I prefer first focal plane and milradians, but am just as confident and competent behind my buddies' second focal plane and MOA scopes. They are just different.

Yes, there are people who buy stuff cause it is "tacticool" and don't learn the system. I don't like those people either. But, if you think that FFP and mils are for "tacticool" then that tells me you don't really understand what I am doing with it, or you just really like your system cause it works best for you. I get that, and as long as you understand your second focal plane and MOA, it doesn't matter. I don't call SFP and MOA guys "fudds" or other derogatory terms, just because I disagree and prefer a way that works faster for me.

Bottom line, is pick a system that works for you and learn it. It will do everything you need. 

[HuntHarder]

On 3/11/2020 at 10:20 AM, firstcoueswas80 said:

You took the words out of my mouth. 

 

Idgaf about FFP. My perfect scope is SFP with a standard duplex reticle. (Zeiss hd5)

I have a couple Zeiss as well. Nice scopes for the money.  I really like the windplex reticle that Leupold puts out.  It is exactly what I would want in a reticle.  I almost always dial for drop, but hold for wind.  

[yotebuster]

1 hour ago, loboscout said:But, if you think that FFP and mils are for "tacticool" then that tells me you don't really understand what I am doing with it, or you just really like your system cause it works best for you. I get that, and as long as you understand your second focal plane and MOA, it doesn't matter. I don't call SFP and MOA guys "fudds" or other derogatory terms, just because I disagree and prefer a way that works faster for me.

Bottom line, is pick a system that works for you and learn it. It will do everything you need. 

Well this “fudd” doesn’t have time when he’s killing stuff to count dots and hold 3” low.  I range it with my sig and turn the dial to the number it tells me, then pull the trigger.  I also like to be able to see my reticle when the light is low and I have my scope on 3x working a bulging bull in black timber.  

[loboscout]

55 minutes ago, yotebuster said:

Well this “fudd” doesn’t have time when he’s killing stuff to count dots and hold 3” low.  I range it with my sig and turn the dial to the number it tells me, then pull the trigger.  I also like to be able to see my reticle when the light is low and I have my scope on 3x working a bulging bull in black timber.  

That's awesome. The fudds shouldn't be mocked, they put fur on the ground.

Most of the time I range and dial too. I run a Sig 2400 BDX that links to my Garmin 701. Its so simple, fast and precise. For us, most of the time there is no practical difference. I went from gun in the pack to deer on the ground in about 120 seconds last summer. Could have held or dialed at 575. A buddy shot off a tripod so I dialed it for him. One shot and he was down.

My point is, I learned the system I run well enough to choose the best method for the moment.

For dark timber, thats a very, very compelling reason to go to second focal plane. It is a weakness of first focal plane for sure. The reticle I use works good enough, but not as good as a second focal plane reticle.

If I am hunting dark timber, I might not take my long range gun. I would take a low power scope as well, probably illuminated as well. Could be second focal plane, wouldn't matter.

Guns are tools, and as specialized as they are some are better for some tasks than others.

I think if a guy asks a question, it helps to really explore the pros and cons honestly. Not dismiss them for any reason. 

Discussion is good.

[loboscout]

On 3/7/2020 at 1:18 PM, Dr.308 said:

What are the pros and cons of each?

Straight up basic answers, assuming your system is tuned and no other errors in the tracking/reticle.

Holdover: faster and less prone to mental error by not returning the rifle to zero after dialing for a shot. 
Dialing: more precise and less prone to mental error of not counting the hold correctly.

I could make other observations as well, but the one isn't a whole lot faster and the other isn't a whole lot more accurate. If you don't train for both, the chance for errors increase if you try to switch between them. I have shot over targets because I forgot to dial back to zero. So, I incorporated checks into my shooting system to avoid that error when my brain is overloaded with other tasks. I have also missed shot because I didn't count correctly or messed up a number in my head.

Dialing tends to be more accurate because the center crosshair of most scopes is finer and more precise than the holdovers. Sometimes, you have to hold in the spaces between the hash marks, vs. dialing the full dope and holding center up. Center up is good, because the eye naturally wants to center objects and seek balance. Holding over starts fighting against that natural tendency. The further away from the center of the scope you get the worse it gets, and small errors mean bigger misses the further out you go.

[loboscout]

On 3/11/2020 at 11:37 AM, recurveman said:

The perfect scope would have lines down the post for every 50-100 yard increments that perfectly match my gun and bullet combination.   If you could figure that out for me that would be great.  It would also be great if the scope was a range finder and could tell me what line to use.    Would like the glass to be perfect and keep it under $300 dollars.   I'll be the first guy to buy a few!!!!!     

All that tech exists, but it ain't close to $300 bucks... Ever heard of the Revic or the Sig BDX system?

[Jlreff]

I follow the point blank method in regards to holdover. Tested by the same guy that wrote up the 270 for all those years. I zero to maximize the trajectory of the particular rifle I’m working on. I don’t shoot past 600 and it works for me quite well. After 400 I use the hash marks to adjust holdover, but I verify the hash marks at the range first thou.

[nw07heavy]

All the above is correct, but just adding the following.

Dial ups are the most precise, and best used where you have the time with your spotter. 

Hold overs are the only way to survive if you have multiple range fast targets at known ranges in front you. You can't do dial ups under quickly changing target distances, especially like shooting at multiple targets at once.

[Steve123]

Take it from somebody that has a ton of experience in the matter of holdovers vs dialing. Some of the opinions in this thread are novice advice at best.

I'm fairly proficient with almost everything that has to do with long range. Here's what I accomplished to prove my point that holdovers can exceed dialing in certain scenarios. 

Bear with me, I'm going to describe a very hard long range steel match in this paragraph to show you how difficult it actually was. Near Ashfork AZ this match was called the AZPRC which was a 40 or more round match. It took place on top of a sandstone mine a couple hundred feet above the desert floor so all shots were down hill. Distances were from 300Y to 1450Y. You had 4 minutes to fire all 10 rounds on 5 steel targets of different sizes and shapes, from big to small, all at random distances and positions, depending on the COF's that were predetermined beforehand. Distance and slope angle were given for each steel target as well. As you might have guessed, each steel was to be engaged twice. Once the first target was fired at, whether hit or miss, you had to re-engage it a 2nd time within 10 seconds to count as a hit, if indeed you did hit it. First round hits were worth 10 points and 2nd round hits were worth 5 points. Speed and precision were paramount. You were forced to find the target which wasn't easy. Each target required repositioning the rifle, rear bag, and settling back in. Since the steel was all over the place within a 120 degree circle from the firing point, a new wind call was required as well. This place was windy too!!!

Equipment - I used a Bushnell HDMR/H59 scope in 2011, and a S&B 5-25PM2/H59 for the last half of 2012 season. Both these scopes have a reticle that has .2 mil hash marks and both are FFP scopes, google image that reticle, it seems a busy one but.... Those scopes were on a custom rifle in a 6x47L wildcat cartridge that sent 115 DTAC bullets at 3000 fps. I used a TAB rear bag and a Harris BMRS bipod that swivels.

Now comes the subject matter! Long story short I held over 98% of the time using my H59 reticles, I sometimes dialed for the 1080Y and 1450Y steel but all the rest I held over and off for 100%. 

How well did I do? I WON BOTH SEASONS 2011 and 2012, against AZ's top steel shooters. As well as having the record high score for the daytime matches. Yes there were night matches too, I won some of them but I dialed elevation because the whole reticle was not illuminated.

Okay there are plenty of instances where dialing is more beneficial but there are circumstances that holding over and off using a "GOOD" reticle designed for such can be more beneficial. 

Furthermore a prestigious national or international sniper match (I can't remember which), was won by a military sniper whose new Nightforce F1 3.5-15x50 broke, causing him to have to holdover for the rest of the match. He used a H58 reticle to do this.

BTW I use that same scope on my Anschutz 1827F 22 rimfire, often holding over, I'd say more than half the time, in NRL22 matches, winning the Southwest High Desert regional match in 2018. 

Get a good reticle, practice practice practice your holdovers, and a 500Y shot on a deer or antelope will be a chip shot.

I've hit steel at 1900 yards holding over but I did hit a steel at 2500Y quite a few times by dialing 20 mils and using the reticle to holdover the rest of the way. This was with a big cartridge in 30 caliber, and a bigger one at 2500Y, a 375 Cheytac. 

 

 

 

 

[10Turkeys]

Steve 123,  sorry to point this out, but this being a hunting forum not a shooting forum. How do you think a once or twice a year shooter is going to be able to handle a reticle like this on his Deer rifle,  on a 80lb Coues at say 600 yards.

[loboscout]

17 minutes ago, 10Turkeys said:

Steve 123,  sorry to point this out, but this being a hunting forum not a shooting forum. How do you think a once or twice a year shooter is going to be able to handle a reticle like this on his Deer rifle,  on a 80lb Coues at say 600 yards.

Your point is absolutely valid. Someone shooting twice a year shouldn't buy a FFP or tree reticle. They won't know how to use it. They also shouldn't shoot at an animal at 600 yards either, reticle or not. 

This is in the long range subsection of a hunting site. So the answers given by advocates and those with extensive experience should be evaluated accordingly. People disagree, and have preferences, that's fine. There is no right or wrong. But us guys using FFP tree reticle long range shooters absolutely can inform people of our experiences to make a decision. We aren't making it up and I don't think anyone is saying you have to go with a tree. I certainly am not.

I have dealt with and learned from many professional shooters, snipers, competitors in dynamic field type shoots most similar to hunting. FFP with tree reticles are by far their choice. 

And, to echo your point, don't buy a tree and think it makes you a sniper. You build a valid critique to the tree into your question. I will add that someone shooting their rifle twice a year probably a) can't make a good wind call in the field, b) isn't serious about the skill involved in long range shooting, c) should definitely close the gap or not shoot, d) probably hasn't done the work to get accurate dope, and e) has lots of other issues to solve before the reticle hold over/dial becomes an issue.

Long range shooting isn't easy to just do without practice and skill. Long range hunting adds another complexity.

At 600 yards, just the temperature or barometric pressure or altitude can cause a miss. Those custom dials and duplex reticle scopes people buy really aren't useful at that distance. I could prove it, but won't spend time on it.

Long range shooting is a legitimate skill. It is a perishable skill as well. Shooting once or twice a year is not enough to maintain it really. 

Bottom line, I could shoot in readable wind conditions at long ranges holding over or dialing. If you think my shot is luck in the video, watch the other videos on my channel. Or, anyone who wants to come shoot with me, I love to share. You can shoot my rifles and see whether you like a ffp tree reticle and how I use it.

 

[loboscout]

I will add that a group of coues hunters I know had guns and talked about it. They were moderately successful at long range. Heard all the stories about shots they were taking. Lots that were at their feet or missed. Blamed on something legitimate. 

Well, it got me interested in being competent and I dove deep. Pretty soon I found out that these hunters really had no business shooting that far. 

They pretty well ignored me as I gently suggested ways to improve. I wasn't cool enough and hadn't hunted coues before.

I been there before. But, its just a knowledge gap. These awesome dudes just didn't know what was possible. Neither did I.

I am willing to go shoot with anyone and especially help you set up your rifle and show you what is possible with whatever scope and rifle you have.

I started with a cheap savage and $250 scope and shot out to 1000 under 1 moa in a long range class.

It is so cool. I love to share it.