Distance?

[tjhunt2]

I beleive it doesn't matter what your weapon is, the outcome is still the same and ethics should still have the same emphasis regardless the weapon used.

 

If it's legal, it's ethical. -TONY

 

 

Tony,

 

I think the point you are not addressing with that statement is that there is a difference between Morally Ethical and Legally Ethical. There is a difference to me, anyhow, and if we all chose the high road more often then we (hunters) would look less the bad guy in the eyes of those folks that are on the fence.... Knowing and Staying within your (and your equipment's) limitations can & will make you a better and more Morally Ethical hunter. IMO. And that I believe is what most of the guys are saying as well.

 

The only point I'm addressing is the one several members consistently state here. The words speak for themselves -- "if it's legal, it's ethical." I can't recall who first coined that phrase .

 

Besides, there is NO such thing as "Legally Ethical." If something is illegal, ethics do not come into the picture, lawful conduct does. Ethics involve issues OUTSIDE of those proscribed by law -- a self-regulating system of proper conduct.

 

TJ,

 

It was SARCASM, thus the . -TONY

 

Tony.... don't worm out of this one. You said what you said and then you stated "If something is illegal, ethics do not come into the picture, lawful conduct does." Oh, how wrong you are.

 

If I would run across an animal that had been hit by a vehicle, it is illegal to put it out of it's misery according to the law. The first difinition under ethics...the study of standards of conduct and moral judgement; the first difinition under moral... is relating to, dealing with, or capable of making the distinction between right and wrong in conduct. I don't care what the law saids it is ethical to put that animal out of it's misery IMO.

 

TJ

[Outdoor Writer]

TJ,

 

The scenario you just laid out comes under ILLEGALLY ethical, not legally ethical. Big diff. Despite killing the animal being illegal, you do it anyway. Of course, one has to be prepared to face the consequences of the decision to break the law. -TONY

[tjhunt2]

TJ,

 

The scenario you just laid out comes under ILLEGALLY ethical, not legally ethical. Big diff. Despite killing the animal being illegal, you do it anyway. Of course, one has to be prepared to face the consequences of the decision to break the law. -TONY

 

Tony...I'm to old now to go back to school and learn enough to get one up on you so my hats off to ya but I was smart enough to know you would fire back with what sounded like the right answer.

Have a good day Tony!

 

TJ

 

[hunter4life]

tjhunt2, I liked your example of an illegally ethical situation about running across a wounded animal on the side of the road. I have read something along the lines before that an ethical action is "doing the right thing, even when the wrong thing is legal." There are a few situations such as what you describe where the ethical action is doing the right thing even when the right thing is illegal. One has to be prepared to face the legal consequences when acting ethically in this situation, but hopefully the game warden or the judge will understand.

 

As far as the distance debate goes, the ethical maximum distance is different for each individual shooter and changes with conditions and experience. I like to keep the range under 400 yards with a rifle, and under 200 yards with a scoped muzzleloader. Those are my maximum ranges under good environmental conditions and I make every effort to get closer when it is possible. In consistent conditions it is not that hard to shoot good groups at 600 yards, but I would never think of shooting an animal at that range. An ethical shot is when you are reasonably sure that the first shot will strike where you want it. A better test of whether one should be shooting at 600 yards would be to go to the range every day and fire one shot at 600 yards. The conditions will likely be a little (or a lot) different each day. If that shot consistently falls within the size of the vitals of a coues deer then go right ahead and take that shot when you are hunting. Most people will probably find that they only hit the vital sized area when the conditions are absolutely perfect with no wind whatsoever and minimal mirage effects. At very long range a slight breeze can easily carry the first shot out of the vital zone on a coues deer and if you are lucky it will miss entirely and the worst case is a wounded deer.

 

Before the only bowhunt I have ever done, I practiced throughout the summer and could keep my groups under 5 inches at 60 yards. On the hunt I got a shot at a standing broadside cow at 45 yards. I lined up, released the arrow, and while the arrow was in flight the elk took one step forward and what would have been a perfect shot turned into a gut shot. I trailed her as far as I could, and after I lost the trail my brother and I walked a bunch of drainages trying to either find her or kick her up so that we could start trailing again. We never did find her. This experience really turned me off of bowhunting because the range was well within my comfort zone, the shot was well executed, and yet I wounded and lost the animal because it took a step after the arrow was in flight. This just doesn't happen with a rifle at the ranges I shoot and if it did, it is easier to make a follow-up shot.

[Outdoor Writer]

Tj,

 

Actually I'm a bit familiar with the illegal ethical action.

 

When I lived at Vallecito Lake near Durango, CO in the mid-70s, I had just returned home from guiding on the last deer/elk combo season in the Weminuche Wilderness. I decided to hunt the lower country not too far from home the next day to see if I could fill my own deer tag. The area I would hunt was open for a deer only, however.

 

Anyway, about an hour into my hunt, I came upon a fairly fresh blood trail and noted elk tracks rather than deer. This is mostly P-J country and fairly open. As I followed the blood, I eventually kicked up a bedded cow elk. She tried to flee uphill but her right rear leg was basically hanging by a little bit of hide between her hip and knee. As she ran, she would continously fall, get up and fall again. Sooo....I leveled my .264 on the back of her neck and put her down for good.

 

Now...I KNEW before I did that what I would follow up with, and I also knew I might get cited. Why? Because even though the local game warden was my friend, he was also a tough nut. Yet I had known him for several years, and I taught the local HE class -- the only one in our area. I also often rode horseback with him on his high-country patrols. Thus, I was pretty sure he would believe what I told him.

 

I field-dressed the cow, headed to my truck and went home, where I immediately called Gene and told him what I had done. He said he would bring out a couple horses the next day and we would go pack out the elk and drop it off at the local school. The latter is what he usually did with fresh road kills or confiscated game.

 

There was no mention of a citation. In fact, after we packed out the elk and loaded it in the back of his truck, he cut out the loins, put them in a sack and said, "Here. Take these home for your trouble."

 

Would I have done the same thing if I didn't know the game warden? Probably. But I would have thought about it a lot more. -TONY

[couesdiehard]

I had an incident once in AZ on a deer hunt with my cousin. We kept hearing a strange noise up ahead, grunting and them a metallic chain sound. We followed the sound and found a javelina with it's rear leg in a leg-hold trap. We tried for a couple of minutes to figure out a way to free it without the very upset javelina getting the best of us. When the javie almost tusked my cousin and told him to back off and I shot the javelina. We debated whether to take it or to report it. Finally we decided to leave it for the trapper to deal with. I never felt bad about it. I figured I would have faced the consequences if need be, but I couldn't see any problem with putting the animal out of its misery.

[Snapshot]

I think they should have laws allowing the humane killing of wounded animals, such as what you did with the cow elk, which is very commendible, I would have done the same.!

[firstcoueswas80]

Tony, I had a decision like that to make one time.

 

I was deer hunting with my father several years ago.... Our buddies were below us, and we saw three deer streaking across hill, about 150 yards from us. After several minutes, we decided the two deer infront were fawns, and the doe was far behind them and it was obvious she was wounded some how. Now, I can not remember, exactly what was wrong with her but she was suffering from something major wrong with one of her hind legs. I leveled my (heck, I dont even know what gun I was using) I think 30-06 on her and at one of her many 20 second stops put the cross hairs on her chest and clicked off the safety.

 

I ended up doing nothing about it. I, to this day do not know why not. I think my train of thought was I would really be taking 3 lives instead of 1. In the end, im sure they all suffered.

[Outdoor Writer]

H4L,

 

I was wondering when someone would touch upon the wild card in all this "within your limitations" stuff. That wild card is the LIVE critter at the other end of "distance." Regardless of how efficiently someone can shoot at the gun or archery range at a non-moving target, it will never be the same in the field.

 

Like happened with your elk, a friend of mind who shall go unnamed took a very long broadside shot at a pronghorn. If I recall, it was somewhere between 80 and 100 yards. By the time the arrow arrived, the buck had turned from broadside to directly facing my friend. He was fortunate the arrow entered the brisket just between the shoulders. If the buck had turned the other way, the arrow would have gone into the buck's butt, and my friend might still be looking for it.

 

So until someone can actually predict what the "limitations" of live critters are when being shot at, saying extra long-distance shots are a sure thing for the accomplished gun or bow shooter is a nonstarter, IMO.

 

I'm not even gonna mention someone's ability to dope the wind speed and direction between them and the target. Oh wait, I just did. -TONY

[Outdoor Writer]

I had an incident once in AZ on a deer hunt with my cousin. We kept hearing a strange noise up ahead, grunting and them a metallic chain sound. We followed the sound and found a javelina with it's rear leg in a leg-hold trap. We tried for a couple of minutes to figure out a way to free it without the very upset javelina getting the best of us. When the javie almost tusked my cousin and told him to back off and I shot the javelina. We debated whether to take it or to report it. Finally we decided to leave it for the trapper to deal with. I never felt bad about it. I figured I would have faced the consequences if need be, but I couldn't see any problem with putting the animal out of its misery.

 

Aaahhh. I had a similar incident occur but fortunately didn't have to kill the trapped critter.

 

I was deer hunting on a plantation in Alabama. As I walked up one of the two-tracks just after sunrise, I noticed a commotion on the ground a couple hundred yards away. When I finally got close enough, I saw it was a huge Great horned owl with its foot caught in a trap that was nailed to a wooden post stuck in the ground.

 

In the south, although wholly ILLEGAL, many of the landowners make "pole sets" to catch hawks and owls that prey on their precious bobwhite quail. They set the trap atop a single pole in the open, knowing raptors like to land on top of them.

 

And so here I am trying to make a decision of whether to release the owl or leave it for the owner to sort out. I decided to release it, but this thing was ferocious. Every time I got close to it, it would spread its wings, raise its only free talon and open what looked like a very, very sharp beak. Fortunately it could move only as far as the trap chain let it.

 

Finally, my ever brilliant mind remembered what I had done to remove a fishing lure from a seagull I hooked while surf casting in Mexico. So I removed my jacket and moved in as close as I dare before throwing it over the owl and pinning it to the ground. I eventually worked the trap off, and the owl just kinda sat there when I removed the jacket and backed off.

 

I then went about my hunting. A few hours later, I returned and the owl was gone. Naturally, when the plantation owner picked me up at the designated meeting site a while later, I never mentioned the incident.

 

Casey,

 

Yup, making the decision might be tough, especially if gauging the seriousness of the injury isn't too easy. Often, what we might think is serious really isn't, and the animal might live to a ripe ol' age. -TONY

[Coues 'n' Sheep]

I had an incident once in AZ on a deer hunt with my cousin. We kept hearing a strange noise up ahead, grunting and them a metallic chain sound. We followed the sound and found a javelina with it's rear leg in a leg-hold trap. We tried for a couple of minutes to figure out a way to free it without the very upset javelina getting the best of us. When the javie almost tusked my cousin and told him to back off and I shot the javelina. We debated whether to take it or to report it. Finally we decided to leave it for the trapper to deal with. I never felt bad about it. I figured I would have faced the consequences if need be, but I couldn't see any problem with putting the animal out of its misery.

 

 

Please, don't take this personal..... but I HATED people that could not leave my traps alone!!! That piggy would have lived if it was in my trap, because I always carried a "pig stick"..... a 5' pole with a cable noose for releasing animals that you don't want to dispatch. Just like the one the dog catchers use. All safe and humane! I am 110% in support of situations like Tony was in and of vehicle injured animals, but this thing gets out of hand when you start almost dispatching a wounded animal running accross a hill infront of you or shooting something in someone's trap.... Nothing worse than walking up on a $450.+ bobcat that has a 30-06 hole ripped through both sides of it. Seems that I had a friend come up to one of his sets one time and had a dead critter hangin' in the tree branches where nothing could molest it.... obviously a conscientious outdoorsman had cleanly dispatched the critter and secured it for the trapper. That was cool.... IMO.

 

H4L, Well said and I do agree that there are many variables. That is why I always say when ideal conditions allow for a longer shot. Example: Any antelope further than 35yds. that is looking at you when you shoot an arrow at it will probable jump the string or walk right out of the kill zone.... I had a walking antelope buck jump to a run at 52 yds and I missed him by 3 feet!! Very few critters will stand still for the approaching arrow if they hear the shot & can see the arrow.... And in rifle shooting the wind is a factor, again there are guidelines or rules you the hunter must be aware of, and research that can counter the the wind issue to some degree. However, it all falls on us as the hunter to say those words to ourselves.... "Shoot.... or Don't Shoot".... we have to know, in part by experiance, education, ethics, and common sense whether or not we can truely make this happen or if we are hoping for a "Wing and a Prayer" to get us through it. Perfect practice makes practice prefect..... It is our responsibility.

[HEADACHE]

How about 950 yards. . . . one shot one kill.

 

[Snapshot]

How about 950 yards. . . . one shot one kill.

 

 

For those with sniper training.

 

I might be able to make 950 with one of those .50 BMG's and a 24 power scope

 

[Snapshot]

I just saw a show called "Best of the West" the guy dropped a mule deer with one shot at 625 yds, with a Remington hunter shooting system with a Huskemwa longe range scope. He also just dropped an elk at 810 yds, and absolutely hammered a big black bear at 425 yds. One of the guys is a bench rest champion shooter, and one of the things they preach is the limitations of the shooter.

 

They are plugging a video called " how to shoot beyond belief " order online at www.thebestofthewest.net

[catclaw]

I have killed coues at 400, 150,250,280,360,235.... my dad killed one at 531, 150, 224 (guessed,before rangefinders came out). i have been with guys killin em at 354, 401, 157... have seen them missed at 380, 220 (me).

 

Dad and I are both set up to shoot 500+ yards ( I have turrets, he has B&C reticle with the yardage tested) and I hand load for both rifles. We dont automatically take a 500 yard shot because the buck is there and we have our guns, but if that is the shot we are offered with no way to get closer, then its game on!

 

Like a guy I know from a different sites' tag line reads :"Get as close as you can, but use your skills when necessary." I think that sums it up just perfect!

 

 

Dang, Casey, how do you keep track of the distances of that many bucks? Heck, I can only remember a couple. I can guess on some but there's way to many to be remembering the yardage

 

Longest one that was actually LASER ranged was 365. I shot one in the Cayantano that was easily 500-550. I didn't own a rangefinder back then and it was a risky shot- at a trotting deer no less. Only being able to see my bullet strikes let me walk the third one it- It was the first year that Barnes came out with the X-bullet!