To Fragment, or not to Fragment..

[IA Born]

32 minutes ago, CouesPursuit said:

I also didn't start this thread to cause any problems. It is beyond commendable to kill as quickly and efficiently as possible, but if that means unknowingly putting lead on the table and not just through the animal's vitals, I wanted to see what people had to say. Great discussion so far. 

I tired to PM you the article I was referencing, but it won't let me send you PMs.

https://science.peregrinefund.org/legacy-sites/conference-lead/PDF/0112 Hunt.pdf

[recurveman]

3 hours ago, IA Born said:

Depends on the animal, but generally not deer or elk since my time is limited enough and I don't have the space or money for all of the equipment I used to have access to.  I used to help my dad process deer in our basement in Iowa growing up since he was a meat cutter and we had everything to do it right.  Worrying about picking out lead particles is not an issue for me anymore, anyway, since we only hunt with Barnes.  That's great that you are that thorough when you clean your game, but I'd bet money you are missing lead pieces. and that's not at all a jab at you.  The point of that article that I summarized is that quite a bit of the lead particles are almost microscopic to microscopic in size.  Very few folks I know have the ability to find lead that small in meat and very few are looking over 12 inches from the point of impact to find lead particles.  I'm happy to share the whole article and slew of others on the matter if you are interested.  Lead poisoning is cumulative and the toxicity/poisoning builds up over time.  To be clear, I'm not trying to start a pissing match and I won't pursue one, only presenting what the data show and I've never seen x-rays lie about finding stuff where it shouldn't be.  My intent is to always present the data and let people continue on with their own informed decisions.  Next time you're in Flagstaff, coffee is on me.

I'm not about a pissing match either.   Everyone can do as they wish.   I honestly couldn't eat meat that I didn't clean myself.   Lead scares me a ton less than having a processor clean my meat.   I've seen how some of the meat comes back from some processors and I couldn't do it.   Me and the wife can clean a deer in less time than it takes to bring the meat to a processor......and go pick it back up.  Right on our kitchen counter.   I'm more worried about not getting back my same meat, lots of hair in the meat, ect.    That is a much bigger concern to me.   

[lancetkenyon]

To me, both jacketed lead and non-lead bullets have their place in my hunting.  Most of my rifles have both a jacketed lead and non-lead load worked up for them.  Except my .300RUM.  That is my long range elk rifle, and only shoots a 230 Berger.  Most of them have same 100 yard POI, or at least L-R is, so just a new drop chart is in order, so makes swapping between them easy.  a 200 yard zero might become a 250 yard zero switching between bullets.

Up on the Kaibab, for shots under 600+/-, I try to use non-lead bullets.  Beyond that, Bergers still get sent to do the deed.  

Elk get Bergers from my long range rifle, but could get either from my other two rifles, depending on distance.

Coyotes get Bergers or SMKs.

Squirrels get lead.  Although, I think I saw some new .22LR that use a 21gr copper bullet, CCI 22 Copper, and Winchester 26gr copper.

Non-lead, be it Barnes, Hammers, Cutting Edge, Badlands, etc., do need higher velocities to open, some more than others.  But, when slung fast, are devastating on game.  But, even they have the occasional pencil-through.  The BC is usually less than an equal weight cup & core, and they require faster twist rates to stabilize properly for like weighted jacketed lead too.  If you build for a heavy, most non-lead will work well.  

[yotebuster]

I try Barnes in all of my rifles but I have yet to find one except my .375 H&H that likes them.  
 

Also the post about the split shot leaving lead on someone’s teeth is 100% false.  That cannot and won’t happen.  

[MULEPACKHUNTER]

This has never been an issue for me until this season, one of the kids elk had a less than ideal shot on it and for the first time I had to deal with fragments. We have been lucky enough to either kill with arrows or have perfect shots away from the quarters. I have been looking at GMX bullets for next season for sure. It's a real bummer digging through wound channels to be sure no lead or jacket fragments exist. I do all my own processing and have from day one so this is very important to me and my family. Thanks for all the info you guys have had on this new tech so far. What do we see as the best bullets so far??

[CouesPursuit]

50 minutes ago, yotebuster said:

Also the post about the split shot leaving lead on someone’s teeth is 100% false.  That cannot and won’t happen.  

I may be wrong but I would never lie. I had 2 dentists make the theory in my late teens and early 20s when asking if I did anything different with my right molars than my left. Both said fishing stinkers made sense.

[yotebuster]

Just now, CouesPursuit said:

I may be wrong but I would never lie. I had 2 dentists make the theory in my late teens and early 20s when asking if I did anything different with my right molars than my left. Both said fishing stinkers made sense.

I sometimes agree with patients on things that I know aren’t true as it’s easier then trying to change their mind on what they think.  It is 100% impossible for lead to imbed into your teeth from sinkers.  Break them?  Yes.  Leave lead stuck in them.  No.  Silver amalgam fillings are often on the side pits of your teeth, and often times chunks of silver filling will imbed into your gums when they are cut out at high speed.  Google “amalgam tatoo” and it’ll explain it.  

[trphyhntr]

This thread has touched on everything, bullet fragmentation, meat processing, dentistry.

[CouesPursuit]

2 minutes ago, yotebuster said:

I sometimes agree with patients on things that I know aren’t true as it’s easier then trying to change their mind on what they think.  It is 100% impossible for lead to imbed into your teeth from sinkers.  Break them?  Yes.  Leave lead stuck in them.  No.  Silver amalgam fillings are often on the side pits of your teeth, and often times chunks of silver filling will imbed into your gums when they are cut out at high speed.  Google “amalgam tatoo” and it’ll explain it.  

Haha, my mind was set on it being lead sinkers 😂 Are all dentists admitted liars who share their irrelevant expertise?

[5guyshunting]

Forget lead, the Corona virus is killing.

[firstcoueswas80]

The bull I killed in 2019 was shot with a 180 Berger Hybrid. 280 yards, no exit. Perfect performance. Golf ball hole after penetrating shoulder blade, right above the heart. So far not a fleck of lead, including in the heart. 

[yotebuster]

10 hours ago, CouesPursuit said:

Haha, my mind was set on it being lead sinkers 😂 Are all dentists admitted liars who share their irrelevant expertise?

I don’t lie.  I just smile and nod.  Every day I hear about how a lady had nice teeth until her baby robbed her teeth of calcium, how someone’s wisdom teeth came in and “crushed” their other teeth, shoot I’ve even had people claim they can pick up radio stations through their silver fillings.  All the aforementioned are 100% impossible.  When I was right out of school I used to try to correct them on it.  It doesn’t work.  Just smile, nod, and fix their actual problems.  Works out better for everyone.  
 

Back to topic.  I have had plenty of broken teeth come in from bullet fragments and pellets in meat.   It’s a legit problem.  I just wish copper bullets acted like lead core in my really accurate guns.  My middle of the road guns that shoot around 1 moa seem to be fine with copper at about the same, it’s the really accurate stuff not liking them.  Maybe it’s the fault of the guy behind the reloading press and the trigger though as it seems plenty of other guys have good luck with them?  

[MMACFIVE]

22 minutes ago, yotebuster said:

I don’t lie.  I just smile and nod.  Every day I hear about how a lady had nice teeth until her baby robbed her teeth of calcium, how someone’s wisdom teeth came in and “crushed” their other teeth, shoot I’ve even had people claim they can pick up radio stations through their silver fillings.  All the aforementioned are 100% impossible.  When I was right out of school I used to try to correct them on it.  It doesn’t work.  Just smile, nod, and fix their actual problems.  Works out better for everyone.  
 

Back to topic.  I have had plenty of broken teeth come in from bullet fragments and pellets in meat.   It’s a legit problem.  I just wish copper bullets acted like lead core in my really accurate guns.  My middle of the road guns that shoot around 1 moa seem to be fine with copper at about the same, it’s the really accurate stuff not liking them.  Maybe it’s the fault of the guy behind the reloading press and the trigger though as it seems plenty of other guys have good luck with them?  

I don’t know about picking up radio stations but years ago I was implementing an ultrasonic welding process for a medical product. An associate complained that every time we actuated the machine her teeth hurt from some metal in her mouth. Well being engineers and all we ran a controlled blind study....and she correctly identified machine actuation 100% of the time. So maybe I’m not ruling out radio stations either?
 

I have many guns that shoots monos well under moa. Depending on the cartridge they would give me a practical range of 600-850 yards.  We’ve had great performance with Barnes LRX down to about 2000fps. Never shot anything with less velocity. 
 

Although I shoot long range I really don’t hunt long range by today’s standards so the Barnes work for me. Having said that I usually sight my STW with ABLR (it shoots them well) and have a few in my pack just in case...

[yotebuster]

That would definitely be possible.  It’s called galvanic shock.  Tin foil and metal fillings will definitely get it going.  

[AZAV8ER]

22 hours ago, recurveman said:

Well my experiences with lead in the meat is very different than what has been experienced by others.    I process 100% of my own meat over the last 40 years (probably 200 - 300 cleaned animals) and at no point in time have I ever got a piece of lead (or any foreign substance) in my meat at the table.   If done by a person that is competent in the process of cleaning meat then you will never get a piece of meat with a fragment in it.   When a fragment goes through the meat it leaves a very obvious spot where it travels.

Loosing meat is going to be part of the deal regardless of what type of bullet (or arrow) you use.   I've seen different shots cause very different damage while using the same bullet.   There really isn't a one size fits all when it comes to how a bullet will react upon impact.   Frequently the meat around the impact will not be edible (in my book) just from the blood clotting due to a massive tissue damage.   If you put a bullet through the front shoulder of a critter typically you won't get much meat off of the shoulder.   In all reality most shoulders on a deer won't provide much meat anyways.   Elk will give more but probably not as much as you think.  If you put a bullet behind the shoulder and don't hit the shoulder on the opposite side typically all the meat will be in good shape.   If you are hunting big game and are really worried about saving as much meat as possible then shoot it in the head.    They will drop like a rock and you will loose zero meat. 

         

I have hunted with 30, 284 and 277 caliber SGK's for 50 years. Have processed dozens of deer and several elk. I tended to a lot of shoulder shots (never quite calibrated my eye to get right behind the shoulder) and have excised plenty of ruined meat. Have run across some fragments in the damaged & discarded meat but its been a rarity. Never found lead bits in the meat I kept and have a difficult time imagining tinny bits you can't see having the mass and velocity to travel beyond the wound channel. I do tend to go slow and liberally trim out damage meat and keep a tidy table avoiding contaminated meat getting near the clean stuff. Oh well to late anyway I am 65 retired from a  successfully completed & demanding 40 year aviation career, but who knows maybe lead contamination effects kept me from achieving Top Gun School.