brademan76 Report post Posted February 6, 2020 26 minutes ago, Big or Bust said: Absense of apex predators is the absolute cause of damage to riparian areas? Oh this could be rich.... I'm sure Buster is a BHA groupie who sings the song of that documentary about wolves changing rivers. 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
roninflag Report post Posted February 6, 2020 The wolves are not over populated in Idaho. they sell 40,000 permits and harvest 200-220 wolves . if they were over populated the harvest would be higher. MUCH higher. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idgaf Report post Posted February 6, 2020 Pro wolf guys, Have you seen what wolves do to the ungulate population even the hybred dogs in AZ? Just curious if you actually have first hand knowledge. Or if you are working off what somebody else is telling you. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alpinebullwinkle Report post Posted February 6, 2020 Wow I didn't expect this conversation to take a left turn at the light, but it seems to have. All I will add is in my work career I worked with black belt data professionals. They were excellent at data mining and identifying opportunities. Having said that, I learned that they could dissect the data excellently, and selecting windows in time, could support any story they wished to tell. Our politicians on both sides of the isle seem to do this on a daily basis. Bottom line......... as much as I respect data and science, there is no more powerful indicator of what truly is going on in the wilderness than those that live and experience it on a daily basis. That includes me and why I think I can contribute to these types of conversations "half" intelligently. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alpinebullwinkle Report post Posted February 6, 2020 Bottom line is that the "government dog experiment" is an ill advised wolf reintroduction program that is a disgraceful waste of money, resulting in significant negative consequences to our environment and humans. That is why I have tongue in cheek suggested we introduce the government dogs in Phoenix and Tucson........... so the uneducated and neutral stakeholders that support the program out of lack of knowledge can learn first hand about the wonderful benefits from this ruthless predator.......... that kills more for the sake of killing than self sufficiency. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AZBIG10 Report post Posted February 6, 2020 I would rather see 1 Jaguar in AZ oppose to thousands of wolves. Wolves are about as majestic as the salt river horses. Great argument gents. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JSR Report post Posted February 6, 2020 Anyone that champions socialism is either brainwashed or has the IQ of a maxipad. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BusterAZ Report post Posted February 6, 2020 12 hours ago, muledeerarea33? said: It seems that way. I’d like to talk to a “pro wolf in Arizona” person that has actually been and seen what the wolves do. If they can say that they’ve seen first hand the wild life and cattle destruction and the red tape it takes it would be a good conversation. But when pro wolf people rely on research by another pro wolf person, the conversation becomes an argument trying to convince. It is hard for this thread to stay on topic without the hurling of insults or the excessive crying of “you didn’t answer this or that” The graph presented was a misunderstanding of data in order to blame the wolf exclusively for a much more ecologically complex situation. The above blanket statement about “pro wolf” people is clouded toward the interests of people who want more elk tags. We are all competing for a limited resource. That is fine, but don’t confuse the subject. I’ve backpacked into many fine places in the pursuit of native trout and wild game, so I base my opinions on my own observations and also analyze data collected by professionals. It is important to note that the cattle ranchers may not be the hunters greatest ally, since they were backing Thorpe’s anti hunting bills. 11 hours ago, brademan76 said: I'm sure Buster is a BHA groupie who sings the song of that documentary about wolves changing rivers. If you are referring to the ecological concept of Trophic Cascade, then I’m all for having an intelligent conversation on the matter. Also, I’m aware of BHA, but don’t fly their banner 😉 Below is a well written article that does not give the wolf all of the credit, but eloquently explains the complex nature of an ecosystem. https://untamedscience.com/biology/ecology/ecology-articles/wolf-reintroduction-yellowstone/ 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idgaf Report post Posted February 6, 2020 1 hour ago, BusterAZ said: It is hard for this thread to stay on topic without the hurling of insults or the excessive crying of “you didn’t answer this or that” The graph presented was a misunderstanding of data in order to blame the wolf exclusively for a much more ecologically complex situation. The above blanket statement about “pro wolf” people is clouded toward the interests of people who want more elk tags. We are all competing for a limited resource. That is fine, but don’t confuse the subject. I’ve backpacked into many fine places in the pursuit of native trout and wild game, so I base my opinions on my own observations and also analyze data collected by professionals. It is important to note that the cattle ranchers may not be the hunters greatest ally, since they were backing Thorpe’s anti hunting bills. If you are referring to the ecological concept of Trophic Cascade, then I’m all for having an intelligent conversation on the matter. Also, I’m aware of BHA, but don’t fly their banner 😉 Below is a well written article that does not give the wolf all of the credit, but eloquently explains the complex nature of an ecosystem. https://untamedscience.com/biology/ecology/ecology-articles/wolf-reintroduction-yellowstone/ you've backpacked into the country and fished, but have you actually seen what the hybred dogs do? you also grouped all ranchers into supporting Thorpe, thats not the case. Most our friends to hunters. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ThomC Report post Posted February 6, 2020 Well Buster you are just one of many elite college educated people that come on these pages from time to time to make us country bumpkin hunters see the error of our ways. As you might find if you didnt have such a closed mind that some here might be not so dumb to blindly believe what is said or reported by a scientist. And that is the essential part of science that you cant see. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BusterAZ Report post Posted February 6, 2020 33 minutes ago, ThomC said: Well Buster you are just one of many elite college educated people that come on these pages from time to time to make us country bumpkin hunters see the error of our ways. As you might find if you didnt have such a closed mind that some here might be not so dumb to blindly believe what is said or reported by a scientist. And that is the essential part of science that you cant see. We have more in common than this statement alludes to. I’m not telling you to believe anything. Our own eyes are biased. Look at the data and let’s have a civil conversation. Additionally, my degrees do not make me elite; we all have the same right to free speech. I joined forum to engage and hopefully meet fellow hunters to share ideas and hopefully run the dogs together, fish, or hunt big game together. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AzDiamondHeat Report post Posted February 6, 2020 1 hour ago, BusterAZ said: We have more in common than this statement alludes to. I’m not telling you to believe anything. Our own eyes are biased. Look at the data and let’s have a civil conversation. Additionally, my degrees do not make me elite; we all have the same right to free speech. I joined forum to engage and hopefully meet fellow hunters to share ideas and hopefully run the dogs together, fish, or hunt big game together. No, you have been exposed for what you are. Like the socialist justice warriors, you act like everyone that has an opinion that differs from you is uneducated buffoons. Everything you have stated has already been proven to be false, yet you continue with the same song and dance. Several times YOU have been invited to have an intelligent adult conversation, yet you REFUSE to and cry when called out for it. YOU instigated the insults then cry foul when you are insulted in kind. I do agree with you that you are not "elite". You try so hard to ACT that way, but you have been exposed. You are a fraud and a flaming hypocrite. If you cannot be a man, run along. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goma Report post Posted February 6, 2020 thought I would consult an "expert" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BusterAZ Report post Posted February 6, 2020 3 hours ago, AzDiamondHeat said: No, you have been exposed for what you are. Like the socialist justice warriors, you act like everyone that has an opinion that differs from you is uneducated buffoons. Everything you have stated has already been proven to be false, yet you continue with the same song and dance. Several times YOU have been invited to have an intelligent adult conversation, yet you REFUSE to and cry when called out for it. YOU instigated the insults then cry foul when you are insulted in kind. I do agree with you that you are not "elite". You try so hard to ACT that way, but you have been exposed. You are a fraud and a flaming hypocrite. If you cannot be a man, run along. Same old rerun 🤮 All you do is run your mouth with no citations or data to back a single thought! Again, you have no authority over my speech. I love how you think you can tell me “to run along”. Like you have any control at all other than retreading the same old false claims. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AzDiamondHeat Report post Posted February 6, 2020 25 minutes ago, BusterAZ said: Same old rerun 🤮 All you do is run your mouth with no citations or data to back a single thought! Again, you have no authority over my speech. I love how you think you can tell me “to run along”. Like you have any control at all other than retreading the same old false claims. Same old excuses and deflections. Do you have ANY substance? ANY? You have already proven you have no credibility. We have asked YOU for citations and date and you have yet to produce any. I have not made a single claim and therefor do not need to produce any documentation or backup. Again, I know comprehension is a challenge for you, but please get someone to explain this to you in simple words that you can understand. I would recommend a coloring book with crayons so you can for sure understand Typical liberal crybaby. When exposed as a fraud, accuse the accuser. Sad, but expected. Your shtick is getting old. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
