Unit 33 Hunt pressure

[SunDevil]

well one thing is for sure - there is going to be 1 less lion putting pressure on the deer in 33 this year thanks to Scout'm.

[Dodger2]

Well...I'm one less 33 hunter you will have to worry about this...at least I'm not putting in for the rifle hunts this year. Last year was a mess with all the other hunters and I'm seeing fewer and fewer of the "nice" bucks that have been seeing in the past.

 

When I saw the 650 permits for the each of the three hunts for whitetail only I went right to another unit. I'll probably still hunt 33 with my bow, but we'll see for now...

[gamespec]

I have been reading these comments and trying to get some information together but a lot of other things got in the way so please excuse my delay in responding. Let me try to address some things that have come up in this discussion. It was my intent for the department to publish an article about these hunt changes in the Wildlife Views magazine before the draw. Somehow it didn’t get done, but guess who’s TO DO list it’s on now? We’ll have something in the magazine for the fall.

 

Most of the discussion has been about all the “nonstop” pressure on the deer herd. There will be more days of hunters in the field this fall, but the good news (to most people) is there will be less hunters in the field at one time. In other words, you have a greater chance to go hunting in Unit 33 and all other SE AZ units this fall, and when you do you will see less people. I think the average hunter would consider that an improvement.

 

In my opinion, more deer are disturbed when you pile a lot of hunters in a hunt at one time with limited access so that more and more people get pushed into more areas. I think with less hunters in the field at one time, they won’t get into the backcountry as much or in as high densities. If you like to hunt the roads you will see less people; if you like to get into the backcountry to get away from everyone, you will see less people. If I were a deer trying to hide on opening day, I would opt for less hunters at a time for more weekends. I can hide easier from less hunters.

 

Research done in 34A showed that when they tried to purposely harass radio-collared does, by following their signal they could “bump” the deer once or twice and the deer would stay in their homerange or return immediately. Hunters don’t have radio telemetry gear and it is unlikely a deer would be flushed more than once by a hunter (unless there are lots of them in the field at one time). That’s not a whole lot of disturbance for an individual deer and the research showed that even the intensive harassment during the middle of rut didn’t affect reproduction at all (they monitored the reproductive success of those collared does they harassed intensively). I don’t think having less hunters in the field at one time and a few more weekends will make the deer nocturnal or actually change their activity patterns any differently than last year’s hunt structure.

 

I pulled together some data on what is going on in GMU 33 whitetail herd because of some of the questions that have come up on this board and in my conversations with other hunters. This survey-related information and some of the harvest data are collected by the local wildlife managers.

 

We have to start by highlighting the fires that occurred in 2002-03 because that is why everyone is excited about Unit 33 now. We had a 30,560-acre Bullock Fire in 2002 and an 84,300-acre Aspen Fire in 2003. These 2 fires burned 44 % of the forested areas of the Catalina range. In addition, the Oracle Hill Fire on the north end burned about 2,400 acres in 2002. Here’s a map from the Western Region Technical Attachment NO. 05-06 November 23, 2005. “Evaluation of Post-Burn Hydrologic Recovery of a Small Mountainous Watershed: Upper Campo Bonito Wash in Southern Arizona” By Mike Schaffner, NOAA/NWS Weather Forecast Office, Tucson, AZ William B. Reed, NOAA/NWS Colorado Basin River Forecast Center.

 

 

Not all this acreage burned – within that fire perimeter it was a mixture of unburned green areas, lightly burned areas, moderate-heavily burned areas and charred spots. This mosaic effect is exactly what wildlife need and after the burns I commented that the WT population was going to explode. The WT population has done very well and it serves as a great example of what happens to the quality of deer habitat if you stop the natural fire cycle that existed in these mountain ranges (brush gets old and dies out without these rejuvenating fires).

 

With that as a backdrop, let’s look at what is going on in Unit 33. In the years following the fires, fawn survival increased. Anecdotal reports were coming in of lots of fawns accompanying does in the field. I think there was even better recruitment than we measured on our surveys. We have to survey our deer herds in a scientific and structured manner and can’t just “go fly the burn” (that would bias the data) so I think, given all the other data we have on hand, we had a great reproductive response in our whitetail herd.

 

We need to look at what’s going on with the Buck:doe ratio (B:D) in this unit because that’s an important variable for us all. You can see from the 2002 fires to the present we have had a steady increase in the B:D ratio as more and more fawns were added to the population at a 1:1 male to female ratio. This is typical of an increasing population. In fact, the B:D ratio has met or exceeded our management guidelines the last 3 years. At 25 bucks:100 does that’s a 1:4 B:D ratio and that is pretty phenomenal for public lands hunting in the west and way, way better than most whitetail hunting in the country. This shows we can have more permits out there and still be comfortably within our management guidelines.

 

 

Another thing we can look at is the age structure of the bucks that have been harvested in the last few years. When the Wildlife Manager comes into your camp and looks at your deer’s teeth to age it, that all gets recorded and combined with all ages collected that year in the unit. We can then construct a little pie chart that shows how many mature bucks are being harvested. I added all bucks aged in Unit 33 during the 2002-07 seasons (6 years) and there was a total of 131 bucks aged (Classes= 1.5, 2.5, 3-5, 6-8, 8+ years). Looking at percentages in each age class shows that there are plenty making it into the older age classes. A full 41% are in the 3-5 year-old range. It would be hard to find many areas of public land whitetail hunting anywhere in the country with that kind of age structure of bucks harvested. This tells me that maybe a few more hunters can deer hunt in Unit 33 and not hurt the deer population at all.

 

 

So with all these bucks, how have hunters been doing recently (I think everyone here knows the answer to this one). With our new Management Guidelines we try to manage for 15-20% of the hunters being successful (using only the Oct/Nov hunts for comparison). Unit 33 averaged 39% over the last 5 years! (not including the Dec hunts). That is pretty amazing. That is still almost twice the old guidelines. This clearly shows there have been a lot of bucks available for hunters and shows that we can increase permits to take advantage of all these bucks. We can let more people deer hunt and still have hunt success exceed what we are trying to manage for. The thousands of people who didn’t get drawn for deer last year might not agree that we need so many tags in the middle of rut so hundreds of people can have a 60% hunt success (that’s the 5-yr Dec average in Unit 33!) while they sit at home and try to find something else to do with their teenage sons and daughters.

 

 

Another thing we track is the average number of days per deer harvested. This is closely related to hunt success and not really an independent variable, but another way to look at how hunters are doing. The average number of days/harvest has decreased since the fires started. This is a good thing - hunters are harvesting their bucks in fewer days of trying. This information about hunt success and days/harvest is from the post-hunt hunter questionnaire. Some people point out that hunters who are successful are more apt to send it back to us. That is true and we recognize that, but the questionnaire program has been operated the same way since the 1960s so the trends are what we look at. Also the hunt success Guidelines that we established to manage by are based on the questionnaire results (including this bias).

 

 

So there are a lot of survey and harvest data that show the whitetail population is doing very well and there are a lot more bucks available for hunters than prior to 2001. What has the Department been doing with permit numbers in the last few years with this increasing population? After reading about our management in Unit 33, forum members and lurkers may be surprised to learn that throughout all these increasing trends in the whitetail population since 2002, we have increased permits from 1,700 to 1,900 (only 11.7%). This increase has been almost entirely Juniors-Only permits which are for either species (but mostly WT-hunting kids). I would have to disagree with those who feel AZGFD is destroying this population. I think the thousands who had to sit out last year with their kids and dads and grandparents and uncles would be appalled that this population was doing so well and so many more bucks are available and yet we still won’t let them hunt (for no good reason).

 

 

What are we doing this year in 2008? Most of you know about the structure changes. In a nutshell, we will add a 3rd early WT hunt and reduce the number of tags in December (4 WT hunts total). The restructuring of deer hunts statewide was in response to all the complaints (including those in this very thread) about the sheer numbers of hunters/yahoos in the field during the hunts. Unit 33 is a great example of a unit responding well (biologically), but we felt we couldn’t put more hunters/yahoos in the field because of limited and decreasing amount of hunter access.

 

The new structure does create more weekends and some see that as bad. The advantages, however, are huge. Being able to take advantage of an increasing deer population by letting more hunters take their kids, dads, friends, etc out to enjoy deer hunting and all the while, having a lot less hunters in the field with them when they go.

 

What a beautiful thing. I never try to get people to agree with me, I merely wanted to provide this information so we can all form our own [different?] opinions from what is really going on in the deer population and our management of it.

 

(Now I know some of you are cringing and saying “Quit telling everyone how awesome Unit 33 is right before the draw!” For that I apologize)

 

JIM

 

 

[IHunt2live]

Thanks for the info Jim it was very intrusting. I just hate how there is no 10 day/two weekend hunt.

 

Mike Richins

[Red Rabbit]

Jim,

 

In looking at the bar graphs:

I note the inverse relationship shown since 2004 between an increasing number of permits and the decreasing hunter success. This, I recall, was one factor enabling the department to issue more permits without increasing total harvest. During this time period, the number of hunter days has also increased slightly, which would be expected with a decreased success %.

 

Since the fires, the increase success rate has been attributed to more deer. One thing not mentioned was that the widespread fires also eliminated some cover, making the deer more visible, thus also contributing to the post-fire increase in success and the decrease in hunter days required.

How much of a factor would the increased visibility make on the deer population survey results?

 

Since the number of hunter days/harvest is about 9, I would expect the success to drop due to the shortening of the longer November season to 7 days.

 

Is there any data year by year showing the age structure of bucks taken (as opposed to the 2002-2007 conglomerate)?

Is there information that distinguishes the different age classes of bucks taken btween the Oct/Nov/Dec seasons? (like a pie chart you gave, but one for each season)

Is this information that you presented available for other individual units?

 

 

Doug~RR

[gamespec]

Jim,

 

In looking at the bar graphs:

I note the inverse relationship shown since 2004 between an increasing number of permits and the decreasing hunter success. This, I recall, was one factor enabling the department to issue more permits without increasing total harvest.

 

Since the fires, the increase success rate has been attributed to more deer. One thing not mentioned was that the widespread fires also eliminated some cover, making the deer more visible, thus also contributing to the post-fire increase in success and the decrease in hunter days required.

How much of a factor would the increased visibility make on the deer population survey results?

 

Since the number of hunter days/harvest is about 9, I would expect the success to drop due to the shortening of the longer November season to 7 days.

 

Is there any data year by year showing the age structure of bucks taken (as opposed to the 2002-2007 conglomerate)?

Is there information that distinguishes the different age classes of bucks taken btween the Oct/Nov/Dec seasons? (like a pie chart you gave, but one for each season)

Is this information that you presented available for other individual units?

 

 

Doug~RR

 

We do commonly see an inverse relationship between increasing permits and decreasing hunt success, but its hard to tell if that is what is going on here since the increase in permits is relatively small (in terms of hunters/square mile). The guidelines work the opposite of what you are thinking, when hunt success is trending upward for a couple years it indicates we have more bucks available and we can increase tags. So we decrease tags when the hunt success is trending downward. What you are thinking about is when we shift tags from one hunt to the other we increase or decrease the tag numbers depending on the difference in hunt success during those hunts.

 

Less cover might increase hunt success even if the deer population is stable but I would only expect that effect to work for a year or 2. If the deer population was not increasing and there were no more bucks available, you'd see hunt success decline dramatically and B:D ratios widen fairly quickly and not be able to withstand the harvest. From the helicopter, I don't think the burn has much of an effect on the % of the deer we see in the surveyed area -- we always fly relatively open country anyway because it is a waste to survey in cover so thick you can't see deer.

 

You have to think of the "Days/Harvest" as an average (it is) or as an index to how hard it is to harvest a deer from year to year. Since hunters hunt an average 2.5 - 4 days no matter how long the season is, I don't expect hunt success or days/harvest to be affected by having 7-day seasons rather than a 6-day and a 10-day.

 

The age class data is available for every unit in every year if the WM in that unit has been collecting enough ages to make the sample size large enough. Even if the WM is aging a lot of deer in his/her unit it is hard to get a large sample size for one year - I like to pool several years to reduce the effects of a small sample size. One thing we can look at is to compare 2002-04 to 2005-07. I don't see a lot of difference other than that we are killing better bucks in recent years so the age structure is improving (while young hunters sit at home paying XBOX and their dads go golfing).

 

 

 

One thing I am sure of is the 2 huge deadlines I have tomorrow. I love doing these summaries to answer questions and provide information that people are interested in, it just takes a lot of time and is hard to do and still get everything else done (I'd rather do this actually).

 

JIM

[coues7]

Jim,

 

Once again, My hat is off followed by a BIG THANK YOU for taking the time to address peoples concerns. I truly think this kind of interaction between the AZGFD and CWT.com members really helps build confidence in our WLM'ers and the AZGFD. Thanks again!

[25-06]

Yall are so crazy it makes wonder what the heck....33 aint got but a only a couple deer left in it.....Cant we just lable this thread 34A pressure

[DesertBull]

Jim,

 

Once again, My hat is off followed by a BIG THANK YOU for taking the time to address peoples concerns. I truly think this kind of interaction between the AZGFD and CWT.com members really helps build confidence in our WLM'ers and the AZGFD. Thanks again!

 

I agree. Big difference between this and going to the Commission meeting and hearing them tell the people to sit down and shut up.

[cmc]

Jim,

 

Is it asking to much to see the same kind of stats with the 36 units and 34A?

 

Thanks a bunch for the 33 info.

 

cmc

[Red Rabbit]

The HUNT ARIZONA book from G&F gives most of the info.

http://www.azgfd.gov/pdfs/h_f/hunting/Hunt_AZ_2008.pdf

 

It has survey data, buck:doe, fawn:doe, hunter days, hunt success, # applicants for each hunt in each unit for each species. I did not see it give the age classes for the deer harvest though. There is good data on the horn measurements for harvested sheep.

[azbownunter22]

Jim,

 

Thanks for the info and for your book Deer of the Southwest, both have been very educational. Like everyone else, I think we should change the title of this thread to WT Hunt pressure and or Fire Management.

 

Thanks again,

[tjhunt2]

Jim, thanks for taking the time to explain how the system works. Back in the 80's I use to get surveys from azgf that were very helpful to where I would hunt. They weren't made public but they would give them to you just for the asking. Jim, your facts and opinion can do nothing but help some of the members here in their negative attitudes towards azgf. I said some, not all! The reason is, I know certain members who get on here and go on and on about how azgf thinks it's all about the money. These same members have never been to a meeting but sit on the computer with their negative attitudes and have all the answers instead of working towards a solution. Now there is a difference between those few and those with an opinion. I can see how one thinks that it's all about the money, because I've said the same at times, but overall I believe that there are more individuals in the organazation who really do care about the hunters and the furture generation of our hunting heritage.

First of all, again, I would like to thank you Jim for coming on our site to explain a little how the system presently works and last, but not least, I feel all our members together have so much knowledge that if we all worked together we could have the best hunting situation in the USA. We actually have it pretty good with some of the most public hunting area available to us than most states.

Most don't like changes but give it time. If it doesn't work then we can change it. I think I just heard someone say YEAH RIGHT! Just my opinion.

 

TJ

[IHunt2live]

Well said tjhunt2. We have to remember that the G&F does more then just the hunting and fishing regulation. Sure its a big part but not all they do. We all are feeling the hurt at the gas pump and so are they. I hate to see the prices go up but thats life. They don't have it easy. Think about all the flack they get when they are trying to take a problem mountian lion away from schools and all the tree huggers are trying to stop them. happened in Tucson. Or when people cry and make it difficult for them to remove problem bears. When they can't take care of the problem becouse of all the issues and the bear hurts someone and they get sued for "not doing anything".

I've said it before but while I worked up in Utah I learned alot about their Division on Wildlife and I'm greatful we don't have to deal with that here in AZ.

I just got an internship with the G&F for this summer and I'm looking forward for working for them and learning a bit more from a different point of view.

[tjhunt2]

Well said tjhunt2. We have to remember that the G&F does more then just the hunting and fishing regulation. Sure its a big part but not all they do. We all are feeling the hurt at the gas pump and so are they. I hate to see the prices go up but thats life. They don't have it easy. Think about all the flack they get when they are trying to take a problem mountian lion away from schools and all the tree huggers are trying to stop them. happened in Tucson. Or when people cry and make it difficult for them to remove problem bears. When they can't take care of the problem becouse of all the issues and the bear hurts someone and they get sued for "not doing anything".

I've said it before but while I worked up in Utah I learned alot about their Division on Wildlife and I'm greatful we don't have to deal with that here in AZ.

I just got an internship with the G&F for this summer and I'm looking forward for working for them and learning a bit more from a different point of view.

 

Thanks IHunt2live, and good luck on your internship.

 

TJ