Gun and shot legalism

[Big Tub]

I am not sure where to put this since much has to do with hunting cranes and they can be taller that waist high.    I came across some discrepancies between AZGFD and FWS, or at least the way enforcement is carried out.  

 

I talked to local G&F, Law Enforcement and he stated that for migratory, there are state laws to mimic federal and the limit is 3 shots per gun BUT he stated that there is no limit on the number of guns.  I also talked to the FWS guy and he acknowledged that there is no clear exclusion of multiple guns but that all his associates figure if you need more than 3 shots, you should be busted.  HUH?  

 

Also, the state guy said that you can't shoot waterfowl with lead but there is no exclusion to having both lead and non-toxic in the blind if you are hunting a field (not water).  The FWS disagreed and gave me the reference of 50 CFR 20.21 a and c.  I read them but that helped about as much as reading the bible in greek for me.  The rift comes with what "take" means and their separate interpretations.  Sounds about like "occupied" or "road hunting" in previous discussions that we have had -- clear as mud.  State guy implied that he would have to find lead pellets in the carcass before issuing a citation.  FWS guy said lead is  illegail in the blind if you harvested a waterfowl.  I guess you're OK up until then??? WHAT???

 

Interpretation of these laws in way more confusing than interpreting military specifications.  Laws are written by lawyers for lawyers to employ more lawyers ... I detest them.

 

Thoughts?  And hopefully back them up with book, chapter, and verse.  

[DUG]

Why go looking for a ticket? Just shoot steel or whatever non-toxic shot is legal for waterfowl. When we used to pond jump ducks while we were quail hunting we made sure no lead was on our person just in case we got stopped. And to what you said about them checking the carcass for lead. We never got checked. There's always a gray area with most things hunting. 

Just my opinion!

[yotebuster]

As far as federal rules go, you can have multiple guns on you legally.  I do it all the time when hunting snow geese in the decoys.  I’ve killed hundreds of birds by emptying my gun on close decoying birds and picking up my second gun and killing another one or two.   
As far as lead with you in the field, I guess until you kill a duck or goose you’re probably legal but as soon as you do you have broken the law, even if you shot the duck with non toxic.  So many good (or even better) non toxic options why bother.  

[Couzer]

Yes you can use lead on sandhill cranes. 

[Guest akaspecials]

Does the letter of the law matter if it means you have to go to court or hire a lawyer? Carry nontoxic only on your person when hunting waterfowl to avoid any hassle. If you shoot cranes with lead, don't take waterfowl. Are you running crane dekes next to duck and geese blocks?  

[Couzer]

If you are hunting both water fowl and cranes then you can not have lead in your possession. But if you are just hunting cranes then lead is your friend. Thats just my opinion, but you wont get busted that way. Good luck on your hunt! 

[Big Tub]

"... non toxic options why bother?"    COST!

 

I have already bought some heavi-shot which runs about $5/round.  Hopefully, my hit ratio will be better than on dove which takes about 4 boxes (of 25 rounds) for a limit.  

 

Looking forward to Tony's thoughts.

[AZkiller]

Why

[lancetkenyon]

Sandhill cranes are not "waterfowl".  Lead is acceptable.

But if you are hunting ducks/geese at the same time, gotta go lead-free.

[thegunsmith2506]

When I was younger my buddy and I had a spot in 30a we use to hunt. It was a chunk of state trust land that was walk in only. We would park at the gate and load up for a half day hike with all the shells we could carry and some water. It was a long mesquite valley with some rolling hills and 3 large dirt tanks over a 2.5 mile walk. We would shoot dove and quail on the way in and stop at each tank to shoot ducks. When we were about 100yds from the tanks we would drop our bird bags, reload with steel shot, and go shoot ducks. Twice we ran into the game warden when we got back to the gate. He chewed us out the first time but said he couldn't write us a ticket. After about 30min of talking he calmed down to where we could actually have a 2 sided conversation. He agreed that we weren't doing anything illegal as long as we were dropping all of or lead loads before we walked up to the tanks. The second time he stopped us he told us he looked it up and we couldn't even have lead shot and ducks in the vehicle at the same time, and if he caught us again we would be cited. That situation came down to his interpretation of " possession" vs mine. As far as shot goes for cranes, I think the non tox stuff hits way harder than lead. Its also hard to find big lead shot unless you load your own. 

[Couzer]

Big tub where are your Crane pics at?

[AZkiller]

[Couzer]

1 hour ago, AZkiller said:

Niocely done!!!

[BusterAZ]

The problem with this regulation is that it is loosely defined terminology. There are YouTube videos showing state employees dropping packs with lead to jump tanks. This is their interpretation of the law, but I just use upland steel loads, which are only about a dollar a box more than the cheap lead game loads. Another interesting caveat is the AZ regulation specifies lead shot either loose or in a shell. So you could have lead slugs in your possession and be fine. Modern steel game loads preform great. Texas studied lead vs steel shot dove loads in a large-scale analysis and concluded that lead gave no advantage in harvest rate or lethality for dove hunting. Personally, the new offerings from Kent and Federal are working great this season for both dove and quail. As for cranes, I have yet to have the privilege, but would load up with Boss Bismuth #2 if I score a tag in the future. 

[Big Tub]

Those pics are driving me nuts! 

On 12/13/2019 at 10:15 AM, Vowell said:

Big tub where are your Crane pics at?

I used the Hevishot Tungsten (less expensive than the hevishot I bought also ... next time).  No waterfowl but guide kept our hopes alive for snow geese.  5 shots ... 3 cranes.