Berger VLDs Let Me Down - Suggestions???

[rcdinaz]

Agree, hunt enough and something is bound to not work out. I remember when the Nosler BT was the bullet and the issue was poor penetration, so they came out with the Accubond. VLD is the popular go to now, % of failures is probably the same.  We have been fortunate but the largest muley anyone has shot in my family got up and walked off and on to the res.  When my daughter shot it was like a truck hit it and it did not get up until we packed up and got ready to cross the wash.  It happens.

[Delw]

38 minutes ago, rcdinaz said:

Agree, hunt enough and something is bound to not work out. I remember when the Nosler BT was the bullet and the issue was poor penetration, so they came out with the Accubond. VLD is the popular go to now, % of failures is probably the same.  We have been fortunate but the largest muley anyone has shot in my family got up and walked off and on to the res.  When my daughter shot it was like a truck hit it and it did not get up until we packed up and got ready to cross the wash.  It happens.

The org problem with Nosler ballistic tips  in the early years was the lighter bullets for the smaller cals. 243 270 were made for Varmit hunting you had to use the heaviest grain for that cal avail as they had a slightly thicker jacket. the 308 dia bullets in the 150 and 180 grain as well as the 7mm bullets worked great with no problems in ANYTHING but the 7mm Remington mag and 300 Winchester mag. The problem with those Calibers where the bullet had too much speed. If I recall it took 2 maybe 3 years for nosler to change the bullet to a thicker jacket for the magnum cals.

Nosler ballistic tips is pretty much the only thing I use for hunting yotes and bigger.  My Dad was Also a nosler BT nut and he killed many (texas and Hawaii) axis deer,hogs and a few eastern whitetails.

said the 1st few years he couldnt shoot the 7mm Remington mag. and 300 winmag with out blowing them into mush on entry. but his 308 and 270 had no issues.

Nosler Ballistic tips did get a bad name for that early on and people where shy using them again.

 

[MMACFIVE]

1 hour ago, Zeke-BE said:

We could see the shot hit vitals and hit ground behind.  Bull dropped like a sack of potato's from 700 yard shot.  Then got back up and staggered off.  Next to no blood.  Maybe a total of 5 drops of blood.  Followed tracks for well over a mile.  Got lost in a mix of tracks and finally found a baby drop bloop spot on some existing snow and kept tracking.  Night came and went back the next day and tracked again and lost it in the mist of other tracks.  We grid the area most of the day.  To say it pencil through exactly we don't know other then bullet penetrated all the way through and can see dirt behind.  From more research with the weight of the bullet and velocity from other sites and forums have seen a connection with the 210s slowing down past 500 yards have been seen and documented  by other hunters that at slowed down long range 210s bergers pencil through.  Couple years later on another cow hunt he shot the same distance on a cow and killed.  Once we got up there it pencil through (the exit) and after that he switched his bullet out.  So from experience and investigation Ive seen lots of info about the 210s doing this.  Do I still believe in them?  Yes!  These aren't happening all the time and remember this round is probably one of the most used big 30 cal round used today!!  So lot more shots have been taken and lot more info on kills, and of course your going to see lot more fails on it too because so many use it.  (law of large numbers)   

I would venture to guess you hit a little high and hit one of the spinal processes. That could explain him dropping. I wouldn’t expect a bull to drop on a vital hit that pencils through. 

The 210’s can blow up on a rib at 162 yards and slow down and pencil through over 500 yards yet you still believe in them. I’m thinking I would be looking for something with a broader performance window if it were me. 

[Zeke-BE]

59 minutes ago, MMACFIVE said:

I would venture to guess you hit a little high and hit one of the spinal processes. That could explain him dropping. I wouldn’t expect a bull to drop on a vital hit that pencils through. 

The 210’s can blow up on a rib at 162 yards and slow down and pencil through over 500 yards yet you still believe in them. I’m thinking I would be looking for something with a broader performance window if it were me. 

You very well could be right.  But the hunter has seen the possible paper trails that lead to their conclusion and no longer believes in them.  Two times in a row he lost confidence.  If hunters don't believe in them just change.  Right or wrong you still need to believe in your shooting and how your rounds performs.  If you have concerns and feel better with something else well do it.

[oz31p]

Since the hybrids came out ... I didn’t know people still hunted with the Vdl. 

[lancetkenyon]

There is a big void in an elk that contains no vitals, above the back of the lungs and below the spine, where nothing exists to cause hydrostatic shock and force a bullet to open.  A family member shot a bull one year, and during cleaning, we found an arrow in him through this vacant area.  Entry would was completely healed over, broadhead was stuck in an off side rib with a big mass of scar tissue surrounding it.

It would be like hanging two leather jackets on each side of a yoga ball.  A bullet won't open if no resistance is met.

[MMACFIVE]

7 minutes ago, lancetkenyon said:

There is a big void in an elk that contains no vitals, above the back of the lungs and below the spine, where nothing exists to cause hydrostatic shock and force a bullet to open.  A family member shot a bull one year, and during cleaning, we found an arrow in him through this vacant area.  Entry would was completely healed over, broadhead was stuck in an off side rib with a big mass of scar tissue surrounding it.

It would be like hanging two leather jackets on each side of a yoga ball.  A bullet won't open if no resistance is met.

Agreed. But there shouldn’t be any/enough shock for a bull to drop. The femoral artery is right against the spine. If you clip spine there you would also hit them.   That’s why I think he must of hit higher than this. 

[lancetkenyon]

15 hours ago, MMACFIVE said:

Agreed. But there shouldn’t be any/enough shock for a bull to drop. The femoral artery is right against the spine. If you clip spine there you would also hit them.   That’s why I think he must of hit higher than this. 

I have witnessed this firsthand.  Was hunting up on the Kaibab and had glassed up a bachelor herd of ok bucks.  Nothing I wanted to shoot however. Another hunter came by on a quad and asked if we were seeing anything.  Told him we were actually looking at 5 bucks right then, but were probably going to pass on them.  He jumped off, we showed him through our optics, and he got all excited.  We told him the shot was 554 yards, and if he could make the shot, we would spot for him.

He got set up, and took the shot.  The buck dropped instantly with a big puff of hair.  The hunter jumped up all cheering, and I told him, "Shot was high, he is still alert.  Put another one in him."  He scrambled to get back down on the gun, and took another shot.  "Missed right, shoot again."  Boom.  "Missed high, shoot again.  Buck is trying to get up, make it count."  Boom.  "Missed high, he is getting his legs under him.  Shoot him again".  Click.  Buck dragged his back legs down hill, got to the bottom, got feeling back in them, and was gone.

 

I can only assume he clipped the spine enough to numb him.  We went over to help look.  Hair at the shot.location, not.a drop of blood.  Followed the drag marks down the hill.  No blood.  

[MMACFIVE]

8 hours ago, lancetkenyon said:

I have witnessed this firsthand.  Was hunting up on the Kaibab and had glassed up a bachelor herd of ok bucks.  Nothing I wanted to shoot however. Another hunter came by on a quad and asked if we were seeing anything.  Told him we were actually looking at 5 bucks right then, but were probably going to pass on them.  He jumped off, we showed him through our optics, and he got all excited.  We told him the shot was 554 yards, and if he could make the shot, we would spot for him.

He got set up, and took the shot.  The buck dropped instantly with a big puff of hair.  The hunter jumped up all cheering, and I told him, "Shot was high, he is still alert.  Put another one in him."  He scrambled to get back down on the gun, and took another shot.  "Missed right, shoot again."  Boom.  "Missed high, shoot again.  Buck is trying to get up, make it count."  Boom.  "Missed high, he is getting his legs under him.  Shoot him again".  Click.  Buck dragged his back legs down hill, got to the bottom, got feeling back in them, and was gone.

 

I can only assume he clipped the spine enough to numb him.  We went over to help look.  Hair at the shot.location, not.a drop of blood.  Followed the drag marks down the hill.  No blood.  

Same thing happened to my son on his first buck. Shot, flop, then only hair when we got over to where he was. Turns out he barley clipped the top of the withers. I mean a 1” tear in the hide. We know cause he killed him 3 days later.