Berger VLDs Let Me Down - Suggestions???

[Delw]

Never had a VDL blow up but had them  Not open going straight thru a lope in a 6mm Remington took my daughter good hits to put that lope down, last shot was a running away shot at about 300 yards she hit it right below the butt and it came out the throat. tried them on yotes after that and didnt make what range they went straight thru. yotes just spin circle biting the wound then haul butt like they were never hit.

[NOTAGS]

I shoot the Barnes Triple shocks out of my 7 Mag and 300 WSM. Good expansion and 90% + weight retention on the ones I have recovered, including  3 from bison.

[MMACFIVE]

12 hours ago, yotebuster said:

Awesome bull!  I’ve had good luck with Sciroccos but can’t seem to get the long range performance out of them like I do with the bergers.  Wish they would bond them!  I’ve killed 6 elk with them and haven’t had any issues like you say, but I have seem them really blow up on shoulder shots.  I have heard the same issues with the ELDx and my moderate dislike of all things hornady has kept me from messing with them.  If you can get them to shoot, you won’t be dissatisfied with the performance of the Scoriccos.   Same goes for Barnes TTSX’s. 

Sirocco bullets are bonded

[MMACFIVE]

When most big game is killed well inside 500 yds I fail to see the wisdom in using a bullet that might fail on a rib. This would by design eliminate a shoulder, front end, raking, etc, shot. 

Why not use a bullet with a stronger construction. I grew up with partitions and they have never failed me. I’ve switched to accubonds because of the better bc.  My 7 with  160gr AB at 3200fps is still going over 1800fps with over 1200 ft-lbs of energy at 1000 yds and shoot lights out.  

If you are shooting extreme range why don’t more people have a two bullet system? At long range you should have the time to switch out or you shouldn’t be shooting. 

If if you’d put a 200gr AB or a 175gr LRX into the same spot on your bull you wouldn’t have had to track very far. You are lucky. Imagine how you would feel if you had lost that bull because of bullet failure.  

BTW: that’s a pretty bull congrats. 

[yotebuster]

18 minutes ago, MMACFIVE said:

Sirocco bullets are bonded

I reread my paragraph and my wordsmithing sucked.  I meant I wish Berger’s were bonded.  

[dse]

52 minutes ago, yotebuster said:

I reread my paragraph and my wordsmithing sucked.  I meant I wish Berger’s were bonded.  

Same with Eld-x or the Sierra game changer. Bond them and they would be awesome!

[recurveman]

Bergers are a really accurate bullet for targets and complete junk for hunting.   My results with Berger were the exact opposite.  I shot a hole through a deer that had a dime size entrance and exit and did very little internal damage.   Hit the deer perfect and it was still alive 30 minutes later when we got to it.    Had to finish it off and I wasn't happy about that.   

 I've been shooting the ELD-X and M's for a bit over a year now.   I'm also a big Nosler fan but couldn't get the long range accubonds to shoot.   We have shot a ton of critters with the Partition (BC of a brick) and the ballistictips.  All the nosler bullets performed really well on game.   Never had a problem.   Not a big fan of the ELD-M's for hunting but the ELD-X's are great.   In your case I think you could use any of the ELD-X bullets and be fine.   I'm shooting the 178 grain ELD-X out of my .308 and it shoots lights out.   I think any of the bullets will perform fine under 800 yards.      

[ctafoya]

I've shot them for about 10 years. I am leaning towards another bullet next year. I haven't had time to tinker this year. In the past none of our bullets have expanded, from 180 out to 600 yards. Luckily, there have been heart shots and exploding ribs that have turned lungs to jello. 

[demo man]

sciroccos

 

[Pine Donkey]

Great Bull, glad you stuck with him!

I have shot Berger bullets for many years.  I have witnessed the VLD blowup too.  A friend shot a coues 6 times in the boiler room and finally finished off with another gun.

 

Spin is so critical on the Berger’s.  Too often, guys will develop a “long range” load for their older gun with a slower twist rate.  These may shoot, but the bullet performance is a crap shoot.  In our distance guns we use Berger hybrids and have had great success but we are spinning them really fast.  Also, luck has apparently been on our side.

 

For elk at closer ranges I like the Nosler partitions.  They hit hard and mushroom well.  However, just can’t get them to fly as the ranges stretch out.

[Zeke-BE]

Congrats on the BULL.  Ive read about blogs and forums about every bullet failing and performing well.  I was with a friend with a 30-378 210vld fail as well and pencil through.  Never recovered the bull.  Ive shot a mule deer with 140 grain accubond went 10 ft and died.  It penciled through no expansion.  Ive smoked a whitetail with 142smk at 400 dead in its tract.  Smoked a antelope 400 yards in its bed and never got up with a fist size hole on the exit.  Last year I shot a antelope with a 300 win mag ELD-m and put a huge hole on the exit and stayed alive for a few mins and kept kicking for ever with its lungs like soup and heart hit.  Just yesterday I shot a another antelope in Wyoming (again) at 400 yards with the 142smk little in the front part of the vitals.  He ran off 100 yards.  While I knew I hit him I wanted him anchored down.  Shot again hit him just in the neck meat.  He then beaded down quarter away from me.  I snuck up to 250 yards.  The dude  looked very alive.  I shot again while beaded and hit him quarter away.  A clearly thump sound and the dude doesn’t even move or even flinched.  So we just watch him and then all of a sudden he starts kicking around and lays dead.  I  investigate may first shot and find my bullet broken up into 3 pieces about 2” apart and shredded through his organs.  The quart shot hit behind the ribs and a quarter inch hole on the exit out his ribs.  But for some reason he use kept going. Never has happen to me.  One tough goat.  Then 20 mins later my brother with his creedmoor shoots a goat with his sierra game king shoots through a shoulder pencils through the other side and drops like a rock!!!   No expansion on it but hit the right stuff!  Weird

My point is bullets hit just right, perform just right, kill just right, and some times it misses everything or fails.  But Ive heard more story’s about the 210vld then any other hunting bullet personally.  Give the hybrids a try and I heard guys really liking the ELD-m and x on elk.

[300RUM]

Any bullet can have a bad batch or a bad day. 

Some humans will drop on the spot and wait to die if struck in the torso with a .22 LR, others will take repeated hits to the torso from a .45 ACP and get back up each time. I expect animals have the same variance in tolerance to pain and the will to keep going. Your bull was clearly the later. I once had to put 3 Nosler Partitions from a .270 into a mule deer. The first was a quartering shot from the rear that passed through the chest and destroyed the front shoulder on the far side. Shot through the chest and on 3 legs the deer got up and started running again. I don't consider the Partition to be a bad bullet because of this, it worked very well on other occasions. 

Plenty of other bullets out there to try and it can be fun to experiment. However, the next magic bullet may also fail one day.

Congratulations on the nice bull.

[MMACFIVE]

20 hours ago, Zeke-BE said:

Congrats on the BULL.  Ive read about blogs and forums about every bullet failing and performing well.  I was with a friend with a 30-378 210vld fail as well and pencil through.  Never recovered the bull.  Ive shot a mule deer with 140 grain accubond went 10 ft and died.  It penciled through no expansion.  Ive smoked a whitetail with 142smk at 400 dead in its tract.  Smoked a antelope 400 yards in its bed and never got up with a fist size hole on the exit.  Last year I shot a antelope with a 300 win mag ELD-m and put a huge hole on the exit and stayed alive for a few mins and kept kicking for ever with its lungs like soup and heart hit.  Just yesterday I shot a another antelope in Wyoming (again) at 400 yards with the 142smk little in the front part of the vitals.  He ran off 100 yards.  While I knew I hit him I wanted him anchored down.  Shot again hit him just in the neck meat.  He then beaded down quarter away from me.  I snuck up to 250 yards.  The dude  looked very alive.  I shot again while beaded and hit him quarter away.  A clearly thump sound and the dude doesn’t even move or even flinched.  So we just watch him and then all of a sudden he starts kicking around and lays dead.  I  investigate may first shot and find my bullet broken up into 3 pieces about 2” apart and shredded through his organs.  The quart shot hit behind the ribs and a quarter inch hole on the exit out his ribs.  But for some reason he use kept going. Never has happen to me.  One tough goat.  Then 20 mins later my brother with his creedmoor shoots a goat with his sierra game king shoots through a shoulder pencils through the other side and drops like a rock!!!   No expansion on it but hit the right stuff!  Weird

My point is bullets hit just right, perform just right, kill just right, and some times it misses everything or fails.  But Ive heard more story’s about the 210vld then any other hunting bullet personally.  Give the hybrids a try and I heard guys really liking the ELD-m and x on elk.

A couple of questions:

If you didn’t get the bull how do you know the bullets failure mode?

On the pencil through examples are you basing that on the exit hole?

[Red Rabbit]

180gr Trophy Bonded Tip, 200gr Federal Edge TLR, 180gr Swift Scirocco

[Zeke-BE]

28 minutes ago, MMACFIVE said:

A couple of questions:

If you didn’t get the bull how do you know the bullets failure mode?

On the pencil through examples are you basing that on the exit hole?

We could see the shot hit vitals and hit ground behind.  Bull dropped like a sack of potato's from 700 yard shot.  Then got back up and staggered off.  Next to no blood.  Maybe a total of 5 drops of blood.  Followed tracks for well over a mile.  Got lost in a mix of tracks and finally found a baby drop bloop spot on some existing snow and kept tracking.  Night came and went back the next day and tracked again and lost it in the mist of other tracks.  We grid the area most of the day.  To say it pencil through exactly we don't know other then bullet penetrated all the way through and can see dirt behind.  From more research with the weight of the bullet and velocity from other sites and forums have seen a connection with the 210s slowing down past 500 yards have been seen and documented  by other hunters that at slowed down long range 210s bergers pencil through.  Couple years later on another cow hunt he shot the same distance on a cow and killed.  Once we got up there it pencil through (the exit) and after that he switched his bullet out.  So from experience and investigation Ive seen lots of info about the 210s doing this.  Do I still believe in them?  Yes!  These aren't happening all the time and remember this round is probably one of the most used big 30 cal round used today!!  So lot more shots have been taken and lot more info on kills, and of course your going to see lot more fails on it too because so many use it.  (law of large numbers)