Bonus point?

[Snapshot]

There are two types of people in the draw. The lucky ones that draw good tags on a regular basis , and people like me that do not have an ounce of luck and have to wait many years to get a tag. It took me 10 years for my last elk tag.

The draw and bonus point system has always been a "arguing point" for many, and the stance we take is based on "our luck" in the draw. If I drew good tags every year or two then I would certainly not complain about it. But myself and many others without luck on our side do not like the bonus point system or random draw.

Preference points puts everyone on equal ground. You get drawn, and you have to start over by standing in the back of the line to gain enough points to get drawn again. I don't like seeing guys ( and not just myself ) waiting 12-15 years to draw an elk tag while a guy who has never put in before gets a premium tag with the first try. Luck of the draw? Certainly.

There are many people who share my opinion, and many that do not, And I certainly don't want to start another heated debate on the issue. I just feel that with more hunters entering the draw each year there has to be a way to cycle the draw on a more even basis.

[flagstaff]

Flagstaff,

Here is the data from the 2007 draw for unit 7 antelope.

 

#BP, #applicants 1st&2ndchoice, #drawn, %

0, 1276, 0, 0

1, 1247, 2, .16

2, 876, 4, .46

3, 761, 4, 6, .53

4, 519, 6, 1.16

5, 509, 5, .98

6, 529, 1, .19

7, 414, 1, .24

8, 347, 0, 0

9, 329, 3, .91

10, 261, 4, 1.53

11, 219, 4, 1.83

12, 221, 3, 1.36

13, 192, 2, 1.04

14, 118, 0, 0

15, 118, 8, 6.78

16, 69, 4, 5.80

17, 61, 12, 19.67

18, 5, 2, 40.0

 

As seen, the chance of getting drawn is not great until one is near the 20% pass group. Only 12 of the 61 in your BP group were drawn last year, so there are still many more left than the 14 permits allocated in the 20% pass this year.

 

There were 4,339 first choice applicants for 65 permits. Not enough critters to make every applicant successful last year (or for many years to come if you do the math).

I appreciate the info, RR. Still, with each of us having a 20% draw rate last year, and at least that this year, and whatever smallish chance we had the preceding years, that neither one of us applying on seperate applications for the last almost 30 years and can't get drawn is hard to swallow. Being the two of us, we should be doubling our individual draw rates. Looking at the probability, it should have happend for one of us by now. But with the luck I/we have, it is about par for the course. I dread that we may both will be drawn next year. That would be my luck too. I would prefer spreading it out because just going (even if you are the spotter and not the shotter) is the best part.

 

I understand the probability and math involved, but it is hard to explain to yourself sitting on this side of things. I promise you, it makes you doubt the system.

[Red Rabbit]

Flagstaff,

 

You must be unlucky like me in the antelope draws, cuz we're waiting the longest to draw (finally with 18BP a tag was issued from the 20% bonus pass). Hopefully next year bad luck will ruled out by you being in the pass round also. I think the draw and BP data may be online next year to help shoose a unit wisely.

 

Holy Moly- 4300 1st choice applicants for 65 permits in 7 last year. Don't think any system could be fair to those at the bottom and/or top. Guess most may have to realize that an antelope tag is like a sheep tag, and one realistically may never draw one. If one does, to count their blessings.

 

Doug

[wklman]

If one does, to count their blessings

 

oh yes every day until sept 5th.

[SunDevil]

they are bogus points. a friend of mine drew his second antelope tag in 3 years last week. the hunt he drew only had 2 tags and he only had 3 points.

 

as for me I had 15 elk points this year and still could not draw a early rifle elk tag.

[tjhunt2]

Somebody on this sight was bragging about getting 18 archery tags in a row while others can't draw a couple in their lives. Make your own conclusion. I would like to see 50% of the tags for each hunt go to the BP holders with the highest number and 3 choices in the first draw rather than two. I think this would improve the system dramatically. My .02

 

105Coues......that just happened to be me who stated I had drawn 18 straight archery 22 tags. I simply was making a fact and didn't mean it to sound bragging. Congratulaion on your antelope tag that I can't draw.

 

I hear guys who say I'm lucky and that they haven't drawn a tag for 15 or so years. Lady luck has been on my side for the past few years but I also went with the odds and put in where I was sure to draw a tag like so many others could have done if only they were to study the azgf's odds book. When any unit has a 100% draw then it's a no brainer.

NOT ALL.... but so many I know say they would rather not hunt if they can't have the unit they want but still complain when they don't draw against the odds stacked againts them.

 

100% draw units are just about a thing of the past and my luck will come to an end on the draw some year.

 

Is it unfair?/Does azgf need to change the draw?.....I don't have the answers but I'm going to ride this ride as long as I can no matter how many PMs I get wishing me my last tag and 105Coues wasn't one of them. They know who they are. Not BRAGGING just STATING a FACT.

 

tj

 

PS-Congratulations again to all that drew and for those who haven't I hope you have someone to help out on their hunt.

[azshtr]

Growing up with a brother generally creates various challenges to who goes first, who gets what, etc... My dads solution was to flip a coin. A coin flip should be 50/50 or close to it. I always won... always. I can't think of a time I didn't. It got to the point where my brother would complain about doing a coin flip, then demanding two out of three. I still would win.

 

This year I drew a bull tag with no bonus points.

 

My point... its all luck no matter what. Now if I could just win the lottery:)

[bcoover]

I think the G&f should get rid of the hunter ed bonus point. So many people have taken that class and now have a permeate bonus point, including myself. If you get drawn you should start from zero. Doing it this way would eleminate about 60,000 people from the bonus point draw. I also think 50% of tags going to bonus point holders would be a good idea. It should be more difficult for people who just had a tag, than folks who have waited 10-15 years. Just my two cents

[tjhunt2]

A friend of mine drew 3 unit 9 rifle bull tags the last 3 years and a unit 10 rifle bull tag this year with 0 bonus points every year. . Go figure!

 

TJ

[flagstaff]

I appreciate the thoughts - hopefully, one of us will get drawn next year. I know I have been whinin' and that is unlike me. It's just one of those things where you wonder why you can never outrun that black cloud every dang year. After not getting drawn after almost 30 at bats - and then some kid walks up to the plate and hits a home run at his first at bat would tend to probably drive anybody to think there is somethin' kinda fishy goin' on with the game.

 

I truly know it is a game of probability. I work with that stuff all the time. But it doesn't make it any less "painful" (for the lack of a better word). Some guys got the luck, some don't.

 

Maybe I should play the lottery - maybe my luck would improve there!!

[cbryant11]

i believe that the game and fish should have a rule that if you draw a tag then you are not eligible to draw for say the next 3 years you can apply for the bonus point but i think that would give every body a little bit more of an opportunity to draw more than once in 10 or 13 years.... i drew in 06 and i would be alot happier if i new i might draw in 09 10 11 versus 16 or 19 ,,,,,just my thought game and fish wants more hunter oportunity this method is better than adding more hunts when you wont evan have a chance of killing an animal;;;;;;;cbryant

[coueschaser3]

i think there is some benefit in them but i doubt the system will ever be perfect. I drew my first year ever with no points when i was 16 or 17 6a archery bull. Have not drawn since then missed a couple draws and drew this year with 5 points. now i did enter for a unit that is not a mainstream unit, also has a low number of elk. My benefit was azgfd changed the hunt from its normal 5 tag only early hunt to 5 tags in oct and 10 in late nov. i used logic and how the average person would still want the early tag along with the fact that last year 133 people entered for those 5 tags. split thats 66.5 people per hunt and i assume most would go for the early "rut" hunt cuz they always had anyways. driving my chances up. Maybe it was luck maybe not but i believe there is a science to drawing...unless you will die with out the coveted 8/9/10/6a/6b/4b/4a tags. Mainstream units are a joke. but some people must like like hunting to seem like they really in a parade.

[Outdoor Writer]

i believe that the game and fish should have a rule that if you draw a tag then you are not eligible to draw for say the next 3 years you can apply for the bonus point but i think that would give every body a little bit more of an opportunity to draw more than once in 10 or 13 years.... i drew in 06 and i would be alot happier if i new i might draw in 09 10 11 versus 16 or 19 ,,,,,just my thought game and fish wants more hunter oportunity this method is better than adding more hunts when you wont evan have a chance of killing an animal;;;;;;;cbryant

 

Carl,

 

Way back when, the 3-year rule was in effect here for several years. If I recall, it was for elk and pronghorn. In the grand scheme of things, it's statistically meaningless. If you have 4500 applicants for a unit with 5 'lope permits, removing the 10 lucky dudes from the two prior years might up the odds by a whooping .02%. That's exactly why G&F eventually dumped it and went to the bonus point system.

 

As for more opportunity, who actually draws the permit does nothing to INCREASE opportunities. Increased opportunities relate to getting MORE hunters in the field, not substituting one guy for another. -TONY