ATTENTION UNIT 23 LOVERS!

[muledeerarea33?]

Where’s the op to defend his position for unit 23 sportsmen?

[Non-Typical Solutions]

37 minutes ago, muledeerarea33? said:

Where’s the op to defend his position for unit 23 sportsmen?

He didn’t feel like he got the neighborly treatment?🙄🙃

[Rim Neighbor]

On 7/21/2019 at 12:50 AM, Arizona Mule Deer Org said:

Mr Dillenburg,

I received an email from one of our Board of Directors, asking that I read a forum on Coueswhitetail.com. After reading your initial statements about the Bar X Ranch, the USFS and your I’ll informed statement about water tanks, I knew exactly who had written this blog. Your group of environmentalists and “anti’s” are familiar to many Sportsmans organizations, the Gila County ranching community and the USFS, your reputation precedes you. 

A little about myself and the organization I represent, Arizona Mule Deer Organization (AMDO). My name is Jim Lawrence, president of AMDO. I have been in the wildlife conservation arena for over 15 years, served on the Board of Directors with National groups - Mule Deer Foundation and Arizona Wildlife Federation and have received several State / National awards for my conservation work. I sit on several committees with AZGFD, including the Habitat Partnership Committee (HPC) and the Landowner-Leasee-Sportsman Relationship Committee. I am also working on a Master Stewardship Agreement with USFS on all 6 forests  in Arizona. AMDO is a 501 (c) 3 non profit conservation organization, who’s mission is to improve and enhance habitat for our struggling Mule Deer. You can find out more by visiting www.azmuledeer.org. 

AMDO is very familiar with the Bar X Ranch, I believe my organization can speak with confidence about the ranch, the owners and their commitment to wildlife and habitat conservation. Your comments about the Bar X Ranch couldn’t be any further from the truth. AMDO has worked extensively with Mike and Diana Hemovich and the Bar X Ranch over the past 6 years, developing waters for wildlife, rebuilding catchments, adding solar to all the Bar X Wells, adding water storage tanks and pipelines, removing old barbed wire fences that were a hazard to wildlife and even hosting a workshop for Chinese Forestry / Animal Biologists. Since purchasing the ranch 13 years ago, Mike and Diana have poured hundreds of thousands of dollars in to improving habitat and infrastructure for both their livestock and wildlife. As I work with ranch’s all over Arizona on a daily basis, you won’t find a more respected or trusted ranch.

Here is a little info on the Bar X you might not know. In 2018, Mike Hemovich received one of AZGFDs highest honors, “Wildlife Steward of the Year” award, he is past president of the Society for Range Management, current President of the Gila County Cattle Growers Association and actively participates with USFS in yearly range monitoring on the ranch. Mike and Diana take a science based approach to managing the ranch, working closely with USFS and other organizations to monitor conditions on the ranch. 

With respects to USFS and the Tonto National Forest, here again you won’t find a better managed and respected team of professionals than the Tonto. We work with all Arizona forests and can speak with experience. I’m sure my letter here today will not stop your groups continued and unwarranted harassment of both the Bar X and the USFS, but wanted to assure you that we fully support them.

Lastly, it’s obvious that you are either ill advised or sadly uninformed about the correlation between ranchers, wildlife and waters. I would love to show you hundreds of photos of Arizona wildlife, watering at ranch built and maintained water sources. Without these waters our wildlife would surely suffer. I’d like to invite you to visit the Bar X with me at your convenience, where you will see how development of these waters has exploded the population of Turkey, Elk, Deer and Bears. Water development is AMDO’s specialty, so we do know a little bit about the subject. 

Jim Lawrence 

President

Arizona Mule Deer Organization

Mr. Lawrence ,

 

Thanks for your input.  The Neighbors of the Mogollon Rim are all hunters who seek to preserve the wildlife resources. The members have cabins in the area and have been there long before Mr. Hemovich bought the Bar X.   I see that Mr. Hemovich is on the Board of Directors for your organization. You are probably aware that when the Bar X, LLC (of which Mr. Hemovich is a member) bought the Ranch in 2007, it was permitted by the USFS for 130 cow/calf cattle yearlong and grazing in (the now sought after) Colcord pasture was precluded entirely.

It was permitted for that amount because the United States Forest Service (USFS) studies conducted in the 1970s documented that the existing permit which allowed for 468 cattle yearlong with yearling progeny for 10 months (468 CYL) adversely affected forest resources which in turn adversely affected wildlife.

Here are some quotes from the USFS scientists with respect to the damage done affecting wildlife:

·         "Extreme overuse of grass and browse on the Bar X and HeberReno Sheep Driveway has severely damaged the wildlife resource. Reduced herbage production, extensive severe erosion, soil compaction, and stream siltation are the results of overgrazing in the area. This damage has resulted in degradation of the quality habitat needed to sustain healthy, diverse wildlife populations."(emphasis added);

·         "Of the three primary needs of all wildlife species ... food and cover have been the most severely damaged [by overgrazing] ... which has reduced the capability of the land to support viable populations of wildlife species that one would expect to find."(emphasis added);

·         "Excessive grazing by livestock eliminated cool season grass species in the woodland zone.";

·         "Wildlife habitat has been damaged significantly by the removal of herbaceous plant cover. The decrease in forage production induced by continuous overgrazing has greatly reduced the required cover for viable populations of game and non-game species of wildlife. The near elimination of cool season grasses from the plant community in the woodland zone by domestic livestock grazing has resulted in habitat without the diversity of plant species needed. The limitation of plant diversity in turn limits the diversity of wildlife species to be found. Deer and cattle are in direct competition for browse. This is especially evident in the pine type, but is also a concern in the lower elevation, woodland areas." (emphasis added);

·         "Much of the Pine type is delineated as no capacity because of steep slopes (40% +) in conjunction with a lack of forage." (Exh. A at p.9);

·         "A prolonged history of overstocking and unsatisfactory management has depleted the range resource to a very critical point. Nearly all desirable cool season grasses such as bottle brush, squirrel tail, mutton grass, and western wheatgrass have been eliminated from the plant community. The Pine type is severely depleted of all vegetative groundcover.”

As a result of these findings, the USFS closed the Colcord/Turkey Peak and Haigler pastures to grazing in 1979 and drastically reduced the number of cattle the Bar X was permitted to graze on forest lands from the 468 CYL, to 59 CYL.    In an environmental assessment conducted in 1985, the USFS documented the benefits to wildlife, noting wildlife habitat  "has improved greatly ... Probably the greatest evidence supporting this statement is the renewed presence of elk below the Naegelin Rim, historically an elk winter range." The Forest Service also stated that the abundance of turkey increased throughout the allotment by the reduction in cattle.

We are not opposed to the Bar X grazing, we are simply opposed to reopening the Colcord pasture, which has been closed to cattle grazing for 40 years and is predominantly Pine with limited forage.   With respect to water, first, the area under the Rim is dotted with springs and seeps and creeks and the wildlife know where it is.     Second,  the USFS has excluded grazing in the Colcord pasture for 40 years and to our knowledge, the Bar X has not maintained any water facilities in that closed pasture.  And third, while water tanks can help the wildlife, especially in a drought, it must be remembered that cattle compete directly with elk and deer for the limited forage.  If cattle consume all the forage and drive the wildlife out,then what good does all that water do?

With respect to your statement that Mr. Hemovich has spent hundreds of thousands of dollars – I am not sure how much he has personally spent, but I will point out the Bar X has received hundreds of thousands in public grants for projects. (attached).

In conclusion, we seek to avoid the devastation of the resources for wildlife in the Colcord pasture that the Forest Service documented in the 1970s based on 468 CYL and therefore are opposed to the current USFS draft EA which proposes up to 552 CYL and which proposes reopening the Colcord pasture under the Mogollon Rim to cattle grazing after a 40 year exclusion.

I appreciate your efforts on behalf of mule deer, but we’ll simply have to agree to disagree.  When I opened this discussion, the idea was to get people information so their comments, if any (to the June 5, 2019 scoping letter) could be informed by previous USFS studies.   I provided access to real scientific studies conducted by the USFS.  A discussion based on facts has simply not occurred.  Given the hostility of some on this site, I’m not going to add any further public comments.   If you’d like to read the Forest Service’s own scientific studies, they can be found at www.rimneighbors.org.  Thanks.

P.s. - you allege the following:

 "Your group of environmentalists and “anti’s” are familiar to many Sportsmans organizations, the Gila County ranching community and the USFS, your reputation precedes you."

This simply isn't true as this is the only issue that NOMR was founded for and has ever spoken on. 

BarX-EQIP-contract-042607.pdf

PermitMod-fence.pdf

[Outdoor Writer]

On ‎7‎/‎17‎/‎2019 at 9:34 AM, Rim Neighbor said:

 

I hope those of you that are curious and want to learn more about this subject...

So in which community do you reside, Ponderosa or Colcord? And what were the "significant problems" caused in 2015?

 

I'm reposting the above questions with hopes you'll get around to answering them so members here will know the REAL reasons for your lawsuit isn't about the wildlife. And I'll add another: Do you have a current 2019 hunting license? If not, did you have one in 2018?

[Swivelhead]

Mr. Dillenburg,

Outdoorsmen and women care about the land.  The real issue here is WHO rimneighbors crawled into bed with.  Eco-litigants who tend to be anti everything and exist to feed on lawyer welfare, the Justice Act.  I expect your response to Jim Lawrence is your 1st contact with the deer association or any other hunter friendly NGO.  What say you?

[AzDiamondHeat]

So, Mr Dillenburg refuses to answer the questions he has been asked and is taking his ball and going home because of the "hostility" caused by his own lies. Looks like someone left their big boy pants at home.

I wonder if his clients who are "all hunters" (which is another lie) know that their attorney tucks tail and runs when he is asked questions or faces hostility when confronted with evidence of his lies.

Thank you, Mr. Dillenberg, for NOT answering my questions and acknowledging that you are BOTH a liar AND a FOOL.

I am typically not a very confrontational person, but I HATE liars. Especially condescending crybaby liars.

 

 

 

 

 

[dusty]

"I am a hunter, and I care about wildlife and the health and diversity of this ecosystem". From the original post. 

[AZkiller]

🙄

[muledeerarea33?]

I don’t totally understand? It was a discussion. Heated, yes? But not hostile. Why won’t he answer the questions that have been asked? Hypothetical of course.

[Delw]

4 hours ago, muledeerarea33? said:

I don’t totally understand? It was a discussion. Heated, yes? But not hostile. Why won’t he answer the questions that have been asked? Hypothetical of course.

he's playing the Victim card, Next we will be called Racists. which is fine by me as I am an equal opportunity Racist .

[AzDiamondHeat]

Mr dillenberg,

I have another question for you.  

As a fellow hunter and outdoorsman, what have  you PERSONALLY done to improve wildlife habitat that DIRECTLY possitively impacts elk, deer, and turkey in ARIZONA? Also, how much time or money have YOU DIRECTLY donated to HUNTING or PRO-HUNTING groups?

I guess that was two questions. Doesn't matter though as you have already slithered back to your safe space with your crayons and coloring books and won't man up and answer for your lies.   

It's ok, you have already exposed yourself s a fraud.  No need for further self incrimination. 

 

[Wagges]

In my opinion there should no longer be cattle on public land.  There would be natural water sources for our elk, deer, etc if cattle weren't overgrazed on our public lands for the last 75 years.  This crap will never change.  Forest service is the laziest group out there.  Just look at how they are letting the utv's destroy our forest.  Its all bullshit that wo'nt change. I am Native Arizonan of 52 years and have given up on Arizona Game and Fish and National Forest Services. Now I hunt other states. Hunting will be for the rich not for The average man or woman. What will game and fish do when they have nothing to sell, sell us camping permits?

[bojangles]

11 minutes ago, Wagges said:

In my opinion there should no longer be cattle on public land.  There would be natural water sources for our elk, deer, etc if cattle weren't overgrazed on our public lands for the last 75 years.  This crap will never change.  Forest service is the laziest group out there.  Just look at how they are letting the utv's destroy our forest.  Its all bullshit that wo'nt change. I am Native Arizonan of 52 years and have given up on Arizona Game and Fish and National Forest Services. Now I hunt other states. Hunting will be for the rich not for The average man or woman. What will game and fish do when they have nothing to sell, sell us camping permits?

Cattle aren’t allowed to overgraze anymore.  That is the great myth of the OP.

[creed]

55 minutes ago, Wagges said:

In my opinion there should no longer be cattle on public land.  There would be natural water sources for our elk, deer, etc if cattle weren't overgrazed on our public lands for the last 75 years.  This crap will never change.  Forest service is the laziest group out there.  Just look at how they are letting the utv's destroy our forest.  Its all bullshit that wo'nt change. I am Native Arizonan of 52 years and have given up on Arizona Game and Fish and National Forest Services. Now I hunt other states. Hunting will be for the rich not for The average man or woman. What will game and fish do when they have nothing to sell, sell us camping permits?

I disagree. The explosive growth and drought have pulled the water tables down to the point that many natural waters are dried up or seasonal at the best. Some areas certainly would maintain natural water sources but many desert waters are dry. Coop agreements between sportsmen's groups and ranchers are becoming more common to the benefit of not only cattle but all wildlife.

[Wagges]

Putting 1000 pound animals in the desert and expecting the native animals to thrive is insane. Quail and other small animals can't ground nest with no cover. All your bullshit about Co-op is always one sided, the CATTLE Associations way.  Whenever I see people advocating for cattle industry, it seems they are also those who financially benefit from their agreements . The largest group with the best lobbyists. Cattle in AZ is like putting a dinosaur in Phoenix and expecting that situation to work itself out.  Most states receive enough rain to compensate for this large of grazing, not AZ-not even close!