Rrrrrattle Rattle

[Roosevelt Mark]

This guy scared the crap out of the Amazon guy yesterday.

[CatfishKev]

When researching years ago I came across this site.

http://venomshock.wikidot.com

Here's an article from the New York Times about the guy I think was in the video. I can't find the video though.  

https://www.nytimes.com/1986/08/05/science/the-doctor-s-world-new-shock-therapy-for-snakebites.html

[Non-Typical Solutions]

On 4/26/2019 at 7:07 AM, IA Born said:

I'll have to go back into my venom research papers and see what they say about specks.  Last I knew, they were pretty run-of-the-mill with hemotoxins, like a diamond-backed.  Not much compares to Mohaves in North America, but they are out there (midget faded, tiger, southern pacific).

Was at the Vet's office today and there is a sign says, "Protect your dog from rattlesnake bite! Get them vaccinated!" Is that for reals and if so why not for humans?

[131]

I road a mountain bike up National at south mountain yesterday in the evening ran into two,one was what I think is a speckled. They are cool looking if you are into that kinda thing

[Edge]

1 hour ago, Non-Typical Solutions said:

Was at the Vet's office today and there is a sign says, "Protect your dog from rattlesnake bite! Get them vaccinated!" Is that for reals and if so why not for humans?

I spoke to my vet recently about getting one of my dogs snake vaccinated. He said if your dog is hit by a rattler, its still a trip to the ER and a very poor prognosis. For less money and safer results, get the dog into a snake avoidance class.

[Non-Typical Solutions]

15 minutes ago, Edge said:

I spoke to my vet recently about getting one of my dogs snake vaccinated. He said if your dog is hit by a rattler, its still a trip to the ER and a very poor prognosis. For less money and safer results, get the dog into a snake avoidance class.

I'm thinking of putting myself through one of those classes..........

[IA Born]

On 4/30/2019 at 10:21 PM, CatfishKev said:

I heard it years ago. The guy that told me about it got attacked by a swarm of killer bees and did exactly this and swore it worked.  He first heard about it from a reptile magazine (He was a snake owner). Since then over the years ive researched it and found a handful of videos online.  The one thing I would say is the voltage claimed to have worked from the things I have read was not the type of amperage you would get from an ignition coil on a V8.  It was more like a you could barely feel it on your bare skin kind of voltage. Like a watered down version of sticking a 9 volt battery on your tongue.  Also I read it could only be DC current and not AC.

Question for IA Born..

What type of venom do killer bees have? You mentioned several types of snake venom. Do many snakes in AZ have the same type of venom? And is it possible the dc current could work on one type of venom but not others? Just curious. This has always interested me.

Just for fun I will try and find an old video I saw where an old timer claimed to save several lives with a little hand crank generator. I think it was in South America but could have been Africa.  

I'm not a bee expert, but my first question is what you mean by killer bees.  Africanized bees are dangerous because they swarm in large numbers and attacks often result in 100s if not 1000s of stings.  A colony of honey bees can do the same thing if provoked.  As far as what their venom type is, that's out of my purview.  Sorry, can't help.  Most rattlesnakes in Arizona (US for that matter) have hemorrhagic toxin.  Neurotoxins are not as common, as a whole, but prevalent among many species, including Mohaves, tigers, midget-faded in AZ (very limited distribution in AZ).  Mohaves are tricky because they have a strong neurotoxin (Mohave toxin) throughout most of their range but, but also have individuals that have only hemorrahgic toxins.  To complicate that, there is an area where individuals with each venom type overlap and possess both neurotoxin and hemorrhagic toxin.  That was the subject of my research and I' happy to share my published paper of why some individuals have one, but not the other.  Genetics, baby!  Even among venomous snakes, in general, they can have many different proteins within the venom type, including different ones among different species and, even, within different individuals.  My former immunology professor in grad school demonstrated 22 different variations of the neurotoxin of Mohave rattlesnakes, all based on the presence of various proteins.  Some of those hemorrhagic toxins have 2 different proteins that each cause clotting and hemorrhaging in the same venom.  Some proteins cleave off the antigen binding site, making antibodies (self-produced or from antivenin) rather useless.  Other proteins (disintegrins) peel back cellular tissue layers like an onion.  I have a cool scanning electron microscope of disintegrins peeling back the fascia of a group of muscle fibers, rendering those muscles useless. Happy to share that, too.

By the way, when I hear "Killer Bees", this is where my mind races:  

 

23 hours ago, CatfishKev said:

When researching years ago I came across this site.

http://venomshock.wikidot.com

Here's an article from the New York Times about the guy I think was in the video. I can't find the video though.  

https://www.nytimes.com/1986/08/05/science/the-doctor-s-world-new-shock-therapy-for-snakebites.html

In all of my years of venom research and talking to both venom researchers, ER doctors, and the AZ Poison Control (venom experts there, too), I've never seen any data supporting electroshock.  There is no clinical data, to my knowledge, that demonstrates how electroshock counteracts the properties of those venom proteins.

 

21 hours ago, Edge said:

I spoke to my vet recently about getting one of my dogs snake vaccinated. He said if your dog is hit by a rattler, its still a trip to the ER and a very poor prognosis. For less money and safer results, get the dog into a snake avoidance class.

Exactly this.  Its an expensive treatment that doesn't work effectively at all.  I've had this discussion with my vets and several vet techs many times and its always the same.  Get to an ER and pray for the best.  It doesn't work very well because of the proteins in the venom that cleave off the antigen binding sites, preventing antibodies from attaching and being able to do their job.  It won't work on humans for the same reason.  Bill Haast, who used to run the Florida Serpentarium and handle all kinds of venomous snakes from around the world, used to give himself micro-injections of venom of several different kinds of snakes to build up immunity.  This is the same way antivenim is produced when horses (formerly) and, now, goats are injected, building up the antibodies that are isolated for the antivenin serum.  Despite Bill's efforts, he still had to make multiple trips to the ER for treatments after bites.  I watched a documentary on him a couple of decades ago and it showed him using his wife's rose pruners to clip off the blackened, necrotic tip of his pinky finger after being bit.

We had our two German shepherd avoidance trained when we lived in Tucson and I was still actively handling rattlesnakes while out hiking.  It cost us $50 per dog and was the best money ever spent on that.  A research buddy of mine showed up with a speck from Nevada on his way through town.  He had it in a 5-gallon bucket.  My dogs both came up, being the curious pups they were, stuck their noses over the edge of the bucket and immediately took off running.  I was washing my truck, so my doors were open.  I turned around to see them sitting side-by-side in the back seat looking out the back window with an "Up yours. We're staying here!" expression.  When we'd find them on hikes, research adventures, they'd go find shade and hang out while we took care of business.

[IA Born]

Here is the picture of disintegrins working on a muscle fiber.  The caption with the photo is: 

"A portion of a single muscle fiber (cell) with the amorphous and fibrous components of the plasma membrane being stripped away by the disintegrins present in the venom.  The muscle cell is being stripped right down to, but with no damage to, the plasma membrane itself". 

All of that fuzzy stuff at the bottom of the muscle fiber (cellular level) is the plasma membrane/fascia being stripped away, rendering the muscle fiber useless.

[Edge]

1 hour ago, IA Born said:

I'm not a bee expert, but my first question is what you mean by killer bees.  Africanized bees are dangerous because they swarm in large numbers and attacks often result in 100s if not 1000s of stings.  A colony of honey bees can do the same thing if provoked.  As far as what their venom type is, that's out of my purview.  Sorry, can't help.  Most rattlesnakes in Arizona (US for that matter) have hemorrhagic toxin.  Neurotoxins are not as common, as a whole, but prevalent among many species, including Mohaves, tigers, midget-faded in AZ (very limited distribution in AZ).  Mohaves are tricky because they have a strong neurotoxin (Mohave toxin) throughout most of their range but, but also have individuals that have only hemorrahgic toxins.  To complicate that, there is an area where individuals with each venom type overlap and possess both neurotoxin and hemorrhagic toxin.  That was the subject of my research and I' happy to share my published paper of why some individuals have one, but not the other.  Genetics, baby!  Even among venomous snakes, in general, they can have many different proteins within the venom type, including different ones among different species and, even, within different individuals.  My former immunology professor in grad school demonstrated 22 different variations of the neurotoxin of Mohave rattlesnakes, all based on the presence of various proteins.  Some of those hemorrhagic toxins have 2 different proteins that each cause clotting and hemorrhaging in the same venom.  Some proteins cleave off the antigen binding site, making antibodies (self-produced or from antivenin) rather useless.  Other proteins (disintegrins) peel back cellular tissue layers like an onion.  I have a cool scanning electron microscope of disintegrins peeling back the fascia of a group of muscle fibers, rendering those muscles useless. Happy to share that, too.

By the way, when I hear "Killer Bees", this is where my mind races:  

 

In all of my years of venom research and talking to both venom researchers, ER doctors, and the AZ Poison Control (venom experts there, too), I've never seen any data supporting electroshock.  There is no clinical data, to my knowledge, that demonstrates how electroshock counteracts the properties of those venom proteins.

 

Exactly this.  Its an expensive treatment that doesn't work effectively at all.  I've had this discussion with my vets and several vet techs many times and its always the same.  Get to an ER and pray for the best.  It doesn't work very well because of the proteins in the venom that cleave off the antigen binding sites, preventing antibodies from attaching and being able to do their job.  It won't work on humans for the same reason.  Bill Haast, who used to run the Florida Serpentarium and handle all kinds of venomous snakes from around the world, used to give himself micro-injections of venom of several different kinds of snakes to build up immunity.  This is the same way antivenim is produced when horses (formerly) and, now, goats are injected, building up the antibodies that are isolated for the antivenin serum.  Despite Bill's efforts, he still had to make multiple trips to the ER for treatments after bites.  I watched a documentary on him a couple of decades ago and it showed him using his wife's rose pruners to clip off the blackened, necrotic tip of his pinky finger after being bit.

We had our two German shepherd avoidance trained when we lived in Tucson and I was still actively handling rattlesnakes while out hiking.  It cost us $50 per dog and was the best money ever spent on that.  A research buddy of mine showed up with a speck from Nevada on his way through town.  He had it in a 5-gallon bucket.  My dogs both came up, being the curious pups they were, stuck their noses over the edge of the bucket and immediately took off running.  I was washing my truck, so my doors were open.  I turned around to see them sitting side-by-side in the back seat looking out the back window with an "Up yours. We're staying here!" expression.  When we'd find them on hikes, research adventures, they'd go find shade and hang out while we took care of business.

That and dogs will most often be struck on the face making it tough to impossible to drink, breath or pant to regulate body temp. Any of these could cause their death in the time spent getting them to the ER.

[IA Born]

5 minutes ago, Edge said:

That and dogs will most often be struck on the face making it tough to impossible to drink, breath or pant to regulate body temp. Any of these could cause their death in the time spent getting them to the ER.

Forgot that one.  Good catch!  That's why most leading vets recommend Bennedryl to get the swelling down as fast as possible.

[25-06]

1 hour ago, IA Born said:

Forgot that one.  Good catch!  That's why most leading vets recommend Bennedryl to get the swelling down as fast as possible.

That's exactly why I always have benadryl in my pack. 

[Jazz]

48 minutes ago, 25-06 said:

That's exactly why I always have benadryl in my pack. 

I wasn't aware.. that's good to know.

[AZ8]

On 4/29/2019 at 10:18 AM, AZDirtyTaco said:

Stories like this are more of what my aim was when posting the thread. Just trying to get a handle on how much consideration I really need to give to the "what if" portion of the conversation. At this stage, I feel like our normal heavy hiking boots with gators should be decent insurance against the lowerish odds of a strike. What was most interesting to me about that story is how that dude needed to hike out on his own power and how truly detrimental that could have been for him. Add another mile to that trip and we might be reading a biography instead... Which has always been my biggest hang-up, especially before having the safety net of one of the personal emergency distress devices out there. My InReach stays in my chest rig which stays attached to me at all times in the backcountry, but I might start even start sleeping with that puppy under my pillow. 

For the sake of conversation - So what does one do if they get bit and can see/feel signs that a significant amount of venom was released while miles deep into the wilderness, in big canyon country, lots of elevation to deal with, etc. while solo and with no SPOT or InReach type of device or... maybe it is busted or dead? Basically, you're on your own and self-rescue is your only option.

If the moderators don’t have a problem posting a topic from another forum, I could post a link to that thread from Bowsite. Might help someone down the road......

[mopa1000]

On 5/1/2019 at 9:39 PM, 131 said:

I road a mountain bike up National at south mountain yesterday in the evening ran into two,one was what I think is a speckled. They are cool looking if you are into that kinda thing

I wear turtle skin gators if the grass is so tall and thick, there is no way I am going to see them.  (19a antelope hunting).  Some people disagree, but I usually kill the ones I see.   Pornhub Youjizz Tubegalore

[Jazz]

On 5/4/2019 at 5:15 AM, mopa1000 said:

I wear turtle skin gators if the grass is so tall and thick, there is no way I am going to see them.  (19a antelope hunting).  Some people disagree, but I usually kill the ones I see.  

Depends on my mood sometimes. I found out that not only does my truck hate them, apparently my trailer will take them out given the opportunity.