Lions or hunters.

[recurveman]

I don't think the quality of the deer harvested is as important as the quantity of the deer harvested.

 

Think of it this way. If everyone didn't shoot spikes but shot the bigger deer then what would be left for next year? The spikes of this year. So everyone would go out and shoot a bigger deer and leave the spikes for next year. You really don't let the medium size deer grow up. You actually hurt the chances of shooting a larger deer.

 

There was a study done in the 3bar area in 23 quite a few years ago. Where they were allowed to shoot any antlered deer. The success rate was X. The hunters shot any and all antlered deer. Then another period of time the hunters were allowed to shoot only 3 points or bigger. The success rate was the same. The only thing that changed is there were less bigger deer in the area for the next year. So if you want people to not shoot the spikes then be ready for them to shoot your larger deer so they aren't going to be around for next year. I'm all for shooting spikes. Whack them all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Here is another thing that kills me. Let them get big so they are better breeders. What a bunch of crap. First off we all shoot the biggest one we can find. So if we really believed that then shouldn't we shoot the smaller one or the one that has a deformed rack? The next thing that cracks me up is people think that the smaller deer don't have good genes. Only the big ones do. What a joke. The buck is "throwing" the same genes no matter what age he is. If he is a spike his offspring will have the same genetics. You never know. That spike could be the new world record or a fuddy duddy. It just depends on his daddy one mommy.

 

I say shoot the spikes, shoot the big ones and eat them all.

 

Later,

 

recurveman

[SunDevil]

The question is: Will a spike ever be more than just a spike?

 

If you believe yes, than we should have minimum restrictions. This will allow the young deer to grow up.

 

If you believe no, than we should not have minimum restrictions and should maybe even have spike only tags available over the counter with trophy tags available through draw.

 

A few years ago Pennsylvania went to 4 point minimum on one side including the eye guard.

 

Utah has spike only bull elk over the counter with draw only for trophy bulls.

 

Last weekend I saw a spike with eye guards that had been harvested. I doubt this buck was a yearling.

 

I do not know the answer to this question. It seems both systems work, as does nothing at all. One thing is for sure, it is almost impossible to draw a trophy bull elk tag in Utah.

 

I like nice racks but I also like tender venison.

 

For me, the more important issue is the predators. 10 years ago it was pretty uncommon to even talk to someone who had seen a lion on their hunt. Now, everyone sees them. My hunting partner saw one last year. I saw one the year before last. My butcher has been hunting in the same area for 20 years. The past few years he noticed the deer population beginning to decline. Guess what? Last year he shot his first lion in that area. He had never even seen a lion before that.

 

I have hunted antelope in AZ and seen coyotes everywhere. 8 - 10 a day. This year I went to Utah to hunt antelope. In two scouting trips and one hunting trip I saw ONE coyote. The antelope herds in Utah are doing much better than the herds in AZ.

 

The 1992 law that was passed banning trapping on public property has really hurt our big game. Predators are a much bigger problem now and our big game is hurting because of it.

 

Of course the G & F wants to put all the blame on the drought. No doubt that is a contributor but is definitely not the biggest contributor. Have you been to Texas? I would not drive at night if I lived in rural Texas. To great a chance of hitting a deer. The vegetation there is not that different from the vegetation in southern AZ. Their motto there is, "if it moves, shoot it!" They hardly have any predators.

 

A few years ago the state of Utah finally decided to do something about their predator problem and began paying a bounty for paired coyote ears. Moving in the right direction there.

 

What do you think? Will a spike ever be more than just a spike?

[.270]

while the predator deal ain't really what this line was about, i gotta agree with your feeling. the game and fish is scared of "offending" anyone who may complain. that's why they lined up with the anti's to outlaw trapping and to try and outlaw predator calling contests and why they gave in on sabino canyon and let the strip deer all be eaten. they're a buncha puds. when i was younger there were a lot more deer and a lot less lions and coyotes. every once in awhile someone would shoot a lion in deer season. now folks see them all the time. and there wasn't a permit required and there was a bounty on em too. so when someone shot one they dang sure brought it in because it was worth a weeks pay. and lions weren't anywhere near being "endangered' either. there were a lot of them. they were just a lot sneakier. they don't have to be now. Lark.

[COUESAZ]

I want every one to know I only used the word lion to get everyone to read the post. I am a lion hunter and love to hunt them. And agree with the predator and lion posts above.

[trufletch]

I think you got three types of hunters out there. One type will shoot the 1st buck they see, regardless of horn size. The second has size in mind and will only shoot one that fits whatever size qualifications that hunter has. This one will be willing to come home empty handed at the end of a hunt, the rational being that if you shoot a little one, you can't shoot a big one. The last is the hunter that is trying to score on a large horned buck but come the last day of his or her hunt decides that filling the freezer with venison is ok and takes whatever opportunity avails itself. I personally don't think the current harvest levels and horn size of those deer that are harvested have any negative affect on future trophy bucks. Those of us that spend time in the hills usually see the same amount of spikes, fork horns and larger bucks year after year. Course, i'm just a simple, uneducated desert rat and probably don't know what i'm talking about and got no scientific, empirical data to back it up, so you may want to take all this with a grain of salt.

 

Trufletch

[Rembrant]

Trufletch,

Empirical is a pretty sophisticated word for an uneducated desert rat. I had to look it up. You used it correctly considering the first definition - "derived from experiment". The second definition is also interesting: "depending upon experience or observation alone, without using science."

Most of us on this forum resemble the second definition - and a lot of experience can give ya a pretty good feel about what's goin on out there.

I think most of us are right; antler restrictions don't seem to do much good.

 

It took me a while to figure it out, but when Tonto said he was from Stupid, he means he lives somewhere in the Tonto National Forest. Heck, for a while there, I thought he was trying to tell us he lives in Massachusetts!

Mike

[Guest Ernesto C]

I think people have the right to shot the buck they want,if trophy bucks were not taken that means that good genes are there,also if you only saw spikes taken that means the are bigger dear for me to hunt And no were are not in any way hurting the deer population.

If you want those spikes to grow what will you do??stop hunting or go to a 3 point or better hunt?? Then I think we will be hurting the population.

 

Ernesto C.

[JVS]

I'm gonna follow .270's lead, because I think our predators are a much bigger problem than anything else. We all know that predators have taken a large toll on the deer populations in the past ten to fifteen years. My dad tells me stories every weekend while we are out hunting... "these hills were full of 4x4 bucks in 1965." There were more tags issued back in the day...as a matter of fact, there were doe tags issued! But mentioned before in this thread, a pelt was worth a weeks pay then. I think all the old timers trapped. My dad did. My father-in-law did. My uncles did. My grandpa did, etc, etc. How many of us in this forum can say we trap? How many of us in this forum can say we took 25, 30, or 50 coyotes this past year? Well, all the trappers did. Some of us go hunt yotes on occasion, but nowhere come near controlling the population like we need to. I just saw a pack of three this past weekend on my dads hunt. I took a 350 yard shot and missed! Not only were predators trapped and hunted in the 60's, 70's and 80's, but there was 1080, which is of course outlawed because of its bioaccumulative characteristics. Which the whole contoversy behind that was scavengers can be contaminated if they come in contact with the coyote, or lion that gets the 1080 poisoning. In my opinion, the only animal that will come in contact with the poisoned animal would be another predator, or meat eater that would take a fawn or large deer if given the chance. Killing predators is the point right? I guarantee if we controlled the predator population more, we would have more tags than we would know what to do with. Ha, we might even give some to the out of staters! Nah. It'd be better to raise the deer limit to two per calander year for in-state hunters. Taulman can kiss our butts. I think I may have opened a can of worms with that kill 'em all attitude, but that's OK. Let's hear what you have to say.

Edited January 1, 1970 by JVS

[firstcoueswas80]

THis is a intresting topic, and i like the diversity of answers personally, i hunted for 5 years before i even got a shot, in that time i saw one group of 3 bucks, the reason i didnt shoot was because i was not comfortabl with the shot. if someone wants to shoot a spike then go for it, as long as they have a tag there is nothing that can be done. Some/most of the people who shoot spikes are either A. hunters who are only in the woods during hunting season, dont spend any time at the range, or time scouting and shoot the first legal buck that they see. B. are hunters who kill in the last few days. i was so upset/proud of my dad last season he had one 2 different occasions, spikes and small forkies 300 yards away which presented shots. he passed on them because he didnt want to shoot a small deer. myself, because of the thrill of the kill and andrenaline rush, would kill a small buck towards the end of the season, this year, i am holding out for a 80-90 inch buck and is i come home empty handed, so be it. my main goal for this year is do get my dad a buck. However, i will be carrying my grandfathers .270 and i do plan on killing a deer with it in his memory. that would be a great thrill for me and i would love to do it for him.

[Mattule]

I agree with the fact that predators are a major problem. I trapped during the winters through high school and wacked a bunch of coyotes but then my senior year they changed the rule to private land only and I only trapped a couple that year. I still have a dozen or so victors laying around if some one wants to try it this year.

I also agree with trufletch about the 3 different types of hunters. I was only going to shoot a big buck all last weekend in 24A but this weekend I am going to shoot the first buck with antler showing.

[the breeze]

I hunt lions with hounds and believe me the lions aren't eating the spikes and the does. almost 80% of the kills i find are 80 inch plus bucks. i think the reason for this is the bigger bucks are loners and easier to sneak up on. 2 eyes 2 ears and one nose vs. a small group of does and spikes you do the math. i also think that hunters end up harvesting more spikes and weener bucks because they are easier to find in these small groups. i am sure the lions would eat a lot more dink bucks if they had 300 yard range. i bet az guide would agree that most of the kills he finds espeicially coues deer to be above avg. bucks. it's tough to pass up the smaller bucks when a guy only has a few days a year to hunt. it's hard to burn your corneas out sitting behind glass passing up the 60-70 inch bucks looking for something larger. it's hard to pass up a small buck with 1000 tags in a unit knowing the guy across the canyon from you in orange is going to dump him if you don't.

Edited January 1, 1970 by the breeze

[Couesi1]

A buck, is a buck, is a buck. It doesn't matter what you take out of the population, as long as you got the bucks to breed the does and produce next years fawns, and you always do. By not allowing yearling kills, all you are doing is shifting the majority of the harvest from yearlings to 2.5 year olds. I'm with recurveman.........keep shooting the dinks, leave the big guys for the guys who like whacking the big guys.

Couesi1

[.270]

breeze, i think that the bigger bucks will try and fight instead of running off, too. seems to look to me like that maybe does and small bucks just run when they sense a predator and a bigger buck will turn and fight and get their neck broke. of all the lion kills i've seen, it seems that a lot more were mature bucks than anything and from what i could gather at the scene o' the crime, it looked like maybe macho got the best o' the buck. Lark.