81% of Antelope tags go to NR....

[5yearcoueshunter]

The problem is that probably 80% of NM Antelope are on private land. When that happens, access is an issue. If you make it an all out draw like say Wyoming, you have to get permission to hunt that private land if you draw a tag and that is going to cost you some money, just like if they were the current LO tags. The way I see it, if you draw a public tag now, you get to hunt private and public land in that ranch and have just as good a chance and that trophy buck as the private hunter paying lots of money, which is usually non-residents. What I think needs to change is the ratio of private tags to public tags. I think the rancher is getting way more LO tags then what he should. I think the rancher is making more money on his LO tags then what he's loosing by having the Antelope on his ranch. From everything I've read and observed, Antelope do not compete with cattle. They have a symbotic relationship where the cattle will eat the grass down so the weeds can grow for Antelope. Its the same relationship that Bison and Antelope had. In my observations on some ranches in the NE parts of the state, the Antelope population isn't as high because the grass is too tall because the rancher doesn't have enough cattle. So I have a hard time believing that in most areas in the state that the Antelope is taking food away from the cattle. So in my opinion, the system doesn't need to change, just a better balance of LO tags and drawn tags.

 

Travis

[Guest 300ultramag.]

60% of an antelope tag divided by a LO voucher, subtracted by a NR bunny rabbit equals a 14 inch buck.... so who cares.

go to wyoming u cry babies...at least u have lopes in ur state!

[fatfootdoc]

Jason,

Just curious, did the landowner tags come about while we had our last GOV? Since we had the wonderful privilege of having old Georgie Boy Taulman being related to our previous Gov, we also got the 10% non res with no outfitter and the 12% non res with outfitter. I just wonder if that is related who would we talk to about that? I have emailed salmon and the nm sportsmans fed, no response. ag

[Arizona Griz]

Jason,

Just curious, did the landowner tags come about while we had our last GOV? Since we had the wonderful privilege of having old Georgie Boy Taulman being related to our previous Gov, we also got the 10% non res with no outfitter and the 22% non res with outfitter. I just wonder if that is related who would we talk to about that? I have emailed salmon and the nm sportsmans fed, no response. ag

 

I think you meant 12% non-resident with outfitter.

[fatfootdoc]

youre right my bad. all good now. ag

[jamaro]

LO tags have been around for years... Maybe Johnson or Caruthers? but don't quote me on that... It was before Richardson

 

J-

[fatfootdoc]

I am pretty sure it was Johnson ag

[TAM]

Sundevil,

 

I elected not to post pic's of my 2007 NM goat because it was a bloody mess! I tried to clean it up, but it was still pretty messy. Even after I walked up to him he was still squirting blood all over! I was shooting off my harris bi-pod and pulled the shot and hit him in the neck. Send me your email address and I'll email it to you.

 

My 2005 antelope is not to impressive and I'm not sure I've even got any pictures. It's a long story, but basicly while I was out hunting I came across a bedded buck that wouldn't move. When I got to within 50 yards he finally struggled to get up and his guts were literally hanging out and dragging on the ground, and his back leg was broke and hanging by the skin. His horns were small, but some slob had shot him twice and left him to suffer and rot. I did the right thing and cut my tag on him. Needless to say I was not happy.

[Brush Buster]

I am a rancher here in southwest NM and love wildlife, as many other ranchers do. My family has been ranching in Grant County since 1876 and I am the sixth generation to ranch here hopefully my two boys will the the 7th. Over the years our family has seen antelope populations go from nearly nothing to over 200 head on our place. I am blessed to be out with the antelope nearly everyday and have names for a lot of the bucks and doe's too. We get landowner tags every year and sell them to non residents simply becuase residents don't want to buy them for the same price nonresidents do. Yes, like most things in life $ has a major factor in things and always will to think otherwise is not realistic. 90% of our ranch is deeded yet 20% of the antelope killed on our private property are by public hunters the state assigns to our ranch. I am NOT complaining, but it does show that the public is getting somthing out of the antelope populations on our private property. If there was not a landowener tag system for us to partisipate in the public would not be allowed to hunt any of our private property. Just as most citizens would not allow the public to camp, hunt, or do anything else in your private owed house, or yard.

 

In my OPINION Landowner tags are a must in NM. To many antelope on private land that would never get hunted without landowner tags. The HUGE increase of NM's antelope numbers in the last 100 years is mostly due to the landowners constructing water sources in areas that have good feed but no nateral water sourses. Wild water in NM antelope country is very very limited if any. Most of these man made waters are on private land. If you could see our bills for upkeeping windmills, solar pumps, cleaning out dirt tanks, upkeeping and paying the power bills on submersable pumps you would realize that water just does't appear. Sure it is mainly for the cattle but not always. I have built several water tanks away from corals so that the wildlife would be more comfortable approching and drinking where there is more open space. We always leave the water turned on in cattle vaccant empty pastures so the wildlife will still drink. We pay for and conduct a limited amount of coyote controll which I think helps the fawn survival rate in late July mid August.

 

Yes, the state does own the game, but I think it is to the wildlife's benifet to compinsate the landowners by allowing them to choose who they want to sell "tresspassing rights" to. A LOT of landowners have completly changed their attitude torward the huge increase in antelope population since the landonwer tag system has been in affect. They see $ connected with wildlife and want to protect them and increase their numbers even more.

 

If you were to cut out the landowner system or alter it majorly the antelope populations would start to suffer, slowly but surely.

 

I think the current system dose need an overhaul. Simply put, Public hunters should hunt legally accessable public land and private hunters should hunt private similaur to the other systems in the state such as deer.

 

It looks like the Department is on the right track for once about fixing this problem. I like most of what they are propsing and think it is fair to the public hunters, the landowners and most important our antelope herds.

[jamaro]

Like you said.. it is about the $... What if you were compensated in some way like the Open Gate Program. That way the rancher was reimbursed for the water, grass, etc but the public hunter could have access to hunt.

 

Also, instead of paying for coyote control would you be willing to let a few responsible sportsman kill some of your coyotes?

 

thank you

J

[TLH]

Brush Buster,

 

It is good to hear from a rancher and his thoughts. I was going to ask when the point about letting public hunters on the ranches when LO tags are given and you answered that. The fact is that with out the LO tags there would be locked gates and no access to lands that are privately owned. And as stated, the wildlife belongs to the state but the land belongs to the private rancher--with that you must consider that there would be no way to access the state owned wildlife if the rancher decided to shut his gates.

 

I would be very careful to ask for changes as those changes may not be what you expected--it happens, open the can and the worms will come out.

 

I have applied three times in New Mexico twice for rifle and once for archery--i killed one with the bow and passed several bucks up with my rifle--once i was not drawn. When i go to New Mexico i spend my out of state dollars there and that helps the economy in that state. I am like many hunters who just want to enjoy a hunt, and rarely do i worry about how much someone paid for a tag--even though i know that some pay a lot of bucks to shoot a goat.

 

I have guided in New Mexico for three years as well--meeting and speaking with a lot of ranchers. One i can tell you makes over 40% of her income from landowner tags and with out that income that ranch would be sold to the highest bidder and who knows what that person would be like--oh, she lets archers hunt on her place for free because she believes that archers have a lot less chance of shooting a buck.

 

I have met the wealthy rancher as well and he is a good person but one that is in it for the money--he is not shy or embarrassed to state this and why should he be? It is an added income that he takes pride in. He controls predators and he gets a pay back.

 

 

I don't know but i would say that the way the system is is the best way under the circumstances in New Mexico. Just my opinion though and i know that some will not agree with that.

[5yearcoueshunter]

TLH,

What you said makes good sense I do beleive there are pros and cons to the current system. You've have been very lucky in getting two tags in three years of applying. It's a little tougher to convince somebody like my Dad who hasn't drawn a buck Antelope tag as a resident in over 20 years that it's a good system. The ratio of LO tags vs public tags is way out of proportion in my opinion which is taking away tags that my Dad would have a better chance of drawing.

 

Travis

[TLH]

In AZ we fought to keep the NR at 10% but we are different in that we have 87% public land here--i do know that there are things happening here that leads me to believe that some ranchers will be asking a lot of money for trespassing fee's very soon. In one case there is a ranch that has been open for walk in hunting here since i was a young hunter--now, the next generation has taken it over and along with a very good outfitter (i won't mention names) has closed the entire ranch off--this ranch is nearly 80% of Unit 19B here in AZ and is one of the best antelope/mule deer/soon to be elk units we have. There is another motion in play that will allow this same ranch to trade land for the Yavapai Ranch and if this happens the entire unit (or close to it) will be off limits to anyone who doesn't have the dime to pay.

 

I see this happening in other units as well--unit 8--unit 10 come to mind. i know on the unit 10 ranch there is a huge trespass fee to hunt this ranchers place--you have to wonder why anyone would pay that when unit 10 has a lot of acres--but then again, the Indians bought the largest ranch in the unit and it won't be long until that unit is just about closed for the regular guys.

 

I am lucky when it comes to getting drawn for antelope though---even here in AZ i have been drawn 4 times over the years--and no i am not 80 years old--yet! i have been drawn for rifle once, muzzy once and archery twice--done pretty good with those too. And i feel bad for your dad and i can relate--my dad is 73 and he has never been drawn here or in New Mexico--15 points this year so here is hoping.

[jamaro]

WOW TLH you have drawn more than I have.... and I have been trying for 15 years and I am a resident...

40% of her income?? I am speechless... and I don't want to sound mean but that is way too much....

 

Another thing to consider, there is alot of antelope that are never hunted because ranchers to become part of the A-Plus program... In other words they dont' want anybody on there land so they don't participate in the program. Not LO tags or Public Tags...

 

Trespass fees already happen... When you draw an archery tag it is for the unit, I asked the lady that owns the gas station in Datil if I could hunt on her property... $1500.00 for access... NICE...

[jamaro]

I posted this on MM..

 

What do I proposed? I am still trying to get a grasp for all the issues but lets break this down...

 

The reason we hunt is to manage game and for people of NM to recreate. It is not to subsidies Ranchers. Do they provide water and feed to antelope? Yes but I am pretty sure they wouldn't let there cattle die from lack of water.

 

When it comes down to it, the issue is money, ranchers and outfitters have been given a way to make a buck off of state owned animals. I will concede that the reason populations are stable is because the animals have value to the ranchers.

 

So how do reimbures the rancher for access to there properties and for there water/feed?

 

Well, I think we already have a solution. As many of you know we have a program called "Open Gate", currently a landowner can sign up for the program and he is reimbursed for giving public hunters access to there ranchers to hunt. We could expand this program and get rid of the LO tags altogether. The Ranchers get reimbursed for access/resources and hunter can hunt

 

Where is the problem with this? Outfitters and Guides are going to be cut out of the front part of this equation. Currently, they have a guaranteed income. Say that we get rid of LO tags, those who want a guide can still hire one if they WANT TO, but they are not going to be forced to higher a guide because the outfitters will no longer be able to "tie up" all the tags. In fact, this would benefit NR because they would then have the option to go guided or unguided.

 

So rather than having a 60/40 split, private to public tags everything would go into the same pot and NR will still get there 22%.

 

Okay... Now, what am I missing? Other than the Outfitters and Guides are going to rage? They pulled a fast one on us when this whole thing started so lets try to poke holes in this proposal...

 

Jason