Long range rifles?

[firstcoueswas80]

Not to derail this thread but if I might add something here in the way of "practical" sense. Don't think just because one goes and buys an expensive "long range" gun that all the sudden you can shoot out to 1K. Nothing and I repeat NOTHING is better than range time on a good rifle. You'd be better of to get a decent rifle/optics and then spend the money on the range practicing practicing practicing. As sportsman we owe it to these majestic animals we hunt to not be taking "hail" Mary shots just because we have a "long range" rifle.

 

Scott

I agree with you 100% This is something that I will try to get good at and only then would I try to make a long shot. I have been shooting for a long time and am a respectable shot but I consider 500 yards a far shot on an animal, but hey what the heck I figure if I get a better rifle than I have now and learn to shoot it at 1000 yards what harm is that gona do? It will only make me a better shot and hunter. I am a bow hunter mainly so I have been sneaking up on animals for a long time now and am pretty confident that I will be able to get closer than 1000 yards for a shot. Another reason I am going to buy this rifle was last year I made a shot on the last day of the hunt at about 400 yards with my 30-06 shooting 180 grains. (I know not the perfect load) Needless to say the first shot I missed but adjusted for the second shot accordingly (aimed 2' over the back!) and dropped my first coues buck where he stood. So now that I am a coues NUT I figure I will spend the money on a nice set-up that takes more of the guess work out because I DO NOT want to wound a deer and am willing to do anything possible (including spending a buttload of $$$) to make a one shot kill. Also I do plan on getting a rangefinder and have been looking into this quite a bit and am set on the Swaro's or the Leica CRF 1200's. Someone had also mentioned that you are only as good as the scope you have and I am fully aware of that and agree 200%. That is why I am trying to get as much info as possible so I know what to plan on spending and more importantly so I am able to get something and have enough time to set-up and learn to shoot it before next year. THANKS FOR ALL OF YOUR HELP GUYS KEEP EM COMING!

 

 

 

IMO, the best rang time you can do is go to the range and get your ballistics doped, (wind, and drop at what ranges) and then go out in the field and start practicing! My favorite way to practice is either on jack rabbits or rocks. Sit up on a high spot with your spotter and pick out rocks. range em and bust them! Its fun and you get a lot of good practice out there!

 

 

By the way, you are breaking a unspoken law and not posting a picture of your deer!

[Coues Sniper]

Matt,

 

I finally got a few minutes from work so here's my 2 cents on long range rifles. First, you’re probably going to want one of the big 30’s for a caliber. Which one is really a matter of opinion. 300 Win, 300 RUM, 300 Weatherby, 30 Hart, 30-378 Weatherby, etc, are all essentially going to do the same thing; lob a 180 or so grain bullet WAY out there. Some will extend the effective range of your bullet more than others, but you might not be able to shoot far enough for it to matter anyways. So do some research, especially if you are going to reload, but don’t stress yourself out over it. As far as which rifle, I’d really recommend going with some sort of a custom rig built off the always reliable Remington 700 action. My Christensen is built off of a 700 action in titanium because I was trying to make the gun as light as possible. Which also made the carbon barrel a big plus. The custom job will ensure that your receiver has been trued and faced, and that you have a high quality barrel. You should also be able to have your choice of trigger, which is very underrated in my opinion for accuracy. Having a crisp trigger that fires at the weight you are comfortable with without any creep is huge. It’s amazing how much of a difference that makes. I went with a Timney trigger on mine. A lot of people like the Jewell triggers, and for good reason – they are the best there is. But they are almost too good. They have a huge amount of parts on them and I have heard of problems with them freezing up in extremely dusty or cold conditions, and they are tricky to work on. I’m sure some people on here have them and never had a problem, I just went on the safe side. The Timney isn’t as good as the Jewell, but it’s still a dang good trigger as is the Shilen. You would also have your pick of stock if you went custom. Most stocks are meant for a smaller than average person so that they more or less fit almost anyone. When you hold the gun and are ready to fire the last pad on your trigger finger should be all that is touching the trigger with your arm and hand comfortable but straight. Many times when I pick up a gun and act like I’m going to fire it, half of my trigger finger is past the trigger. I had my length of pull extended almost an inch, and the grip inletted about a half inch and it fits me great. (I’m right at 6’-0”) A custom guy could help you fit your stock to you before you ordered it. Scopes are also extremely important. You don’t want to spend a ton of money on a gun that shoots ½” groups and put a low quality scope on it. I like Leupold, but there are a ton of good scopes out there: Swarovski, Zeiss, Nightforce, etc. Get the best one you can afford. Like I said before I went with the Leupold VXL 4.5-14x56mm and love it. It is the one with the cut out of the bottom of it so that I can mount it as low as a 40mm which allows a good comfortable check weld, but is a bright as a 52mm and the field of view of a 56mm. I like the 4.5 power on the low end and feel the 14 power is plenty for a top end, but you may want a higher power scope. I wouldn't go any higher than 6x for your low end however. When you have your scope, you are going to have to have some sort of bullet drop compensation built into your scope. There are 2 main ways of doing this to my knowledge: turrets and dots. Turrets of course are dialed to the yardage and windage desired and you hold dead on with your crosshair when you fire. Dots or ballistic marks are dots or lines put onto your reticle and represent different yardages. There are companies such as Premier Reticle that will put dots to any yardage you specify using your particular ballistics. I have a rifle with this on it and it works pretty slick. The only problem is that the scope has to be on maximum power (or whatever power you chose) to work. This can be a problem. A friend of mine missed a nice Coues buck with this system because it was getting dark and he had a hard time seeing the buck at the highest power (where his dots worked) He kept going back down to low power to find the deer, but when he went back to the highest power he would lose it. He eventually ended up forgetting to go all the way back to high power and shot 4 times and never touched the deer at 550 yards. It wasn’t until afterwards that he realized he was on the wrong power. Another problem is Premier Reticle no longer is allowed to do Leupold scopes, Leupold wants that business for themselves. But they (Leupold) will only go to 500 yards max with their dots which is about worthless IMO. You can still have Premier Reticle do a scope for you, but they can only do it on Schmitt Bender scopes which run about 2 grand and if you ever change your load or grain of bullet your dots are worthless. There are some scopes out there that come with lines or dots on them from the factory, but these are all for arbitrary distances that you have to shoot to find out what line is for what distance. This usually ends up with a line for like 267 yards and the next line is 380 yards, etc which can lead to some unwanted math in the field. In my opinion, turrets are the way to go. You create a sheet off of a ballistics program, match up the yardage from your cheat sheet to the minutes of angle on your turret, dial it in, hold dead on and squeeze. For spot and stalk applications, it’s awesome. Leupold will also take your particular ballistics and create a custom turret for your exact load that actually has the yardages etched into it for about 80 bucks. ZERO guessing. This is what I did and I really like it. Best thing is the turrets work for any power your scope is on as they are a minute of angle correction, so if it’s too dark to shoot at 14 power I can go all the way to 4.5 power and be right on. And if I ever change my load I can get a new custom turret for that new load for around 80 bucks. I hope I somehow help in all that rambling. I’m not sure if it’s ok to post that guy’s info on this thread as it might be seen as advertising so I’ll send it to you in a PM, along with how much I dropped on my rifle. Good luck on your purchase.

 

 

Kevin

[COOSEFAN]

dang Kevin.....you are da man! Very informative to say the least!

 

Just to add something, you mentioned about getting fitted for a custom stock.......I did that for mine and was told that it's best to put on a jacket when doing this 'cause usually you'll be wearing one in the feild and it makes a difference on where your finger reaches the trigger.

 

Also, about the Jewell trigger....Thats what my buddies have and it's amazing to shoot.....but I'm not good with working with mechanical things like that so you got me interested in the Timney trigger. How often will I have to mess with the Jewell trigger if I get that one? Is it often enough that I should go with the Timney for the same reasons as you did? Thanks, JIM>

[coueswt]

Coues Sniper, great post.

 

Does Swarovski, Zeiss, or Leica make a custom turret for your exact load that actually has the yardages etched into it?

[mattobertin]

Not to derail this thread but if I might add something here in the way of "practical" sense. Don't think just because one goes and buys an expensive "long range" gun that all the sudden you can shoot out to 1K. Nothing and I repeat NOTHING is better than range time on a good rifle. You'd be better of to get a decent rifle/optics and then spend the money on the range practicing practicing practicing. As sportsman we owe it to these majestic animals we hunt to not be taking "hail" Mary shots just because we have a "long range" rifle.

 

Scott

I agree with you 100% This is something that I will try to get good at and only then would I try to make a long shot. I have been shooting for a long time and am a respectable shot but I consider 500 yards a far shot on an animal, but hey what the heck I figure if I get a better rifle than I have now and learn to shoot it at 1000 yards what harm is that gona do? It will only make me a better shot and hunter. I am a bow hunter mainly so I have been sneaking up on animals for a long time now and am pretty confident that I will be able to get closer than 1000 yards for a shot. Another reason I am going to buy this rifle was last year I made a shot on the last day of the hunt at about 400 yards with my 30-06 shooting 180 grains. (I know not the perfect load) Needless to say the first shot I missed but adjusted for the second shot accordingly (aimed 2' over the back!) and dropped my first coues buck where he stood. So now that I am a coues NUT I figure I will spend the money on a nice set-up that takes more of the guess work out because I DO NOT want to wound a deer and am willing to do anything possible (including spending a buttload of $$$) to make a one shot kill. Also I do plan on getting a rangefinder and have been looking into this quite a bit and am set on the Swaro's or the Leica CRF 1200's. Someone had also mentioned that you are only as good as the scope you have and I am fully aware of that and agree 200%. That is why I am trying to get as much info as possible so I know what to plan on spending and more importantly so I am able to get something and have enough time to set-up and learn to shoot it before next year. THANKS FOR ALL OF YOUR HELP GUYS KEEP EM COMING!

 

 

 

IMO, the best rang time you can do is go to the range and get your ballistics doped, (wind, and drop at what ranges) and then go out in the field and start practicing! My favorite way to practice is either on jack rabbits or rocks. Sit up on a high spot with your spotter and pick out rocks. range em and bust them! Its fun and you get a lot of good practice out there!

 

 

By the way, you are breaking a unspoken law and not posting a picture of your deer!

I did post a pic and story.

[firstcoueswas80]

As far as turrets, you can calculate so that you know where to clicke it, instead of counting clicks.

 

 

Jim, the only Jewell triggers I have shot have the safety at the bottom, which I dont like.

 

 

The Timney triggers are great! I have my Bold trigger and I like it. It had some creep in it, and when I adjusted it, it was gone and is nice and tight at 2.5 lbs.

[mattobertin]

Matt,

 

I finally got a few minutes from work so here's my 2 cents on long range rifles. First, you’re probably going to want one of the big 30’s for a caliber. Which one is really a matter of opinion. 300 Win, 300 RUM, 300 Weatherby, 30 Hart, 30-378 Weatherby, etc, are all essentially going to do the same thing; lob a 180 or so grain bullet WAY out there. Some will extend the effective range of your bullet more than others, but you might not be able to shoot far enough for it to matter anyways. So do some research, especially if you are going to reload, but don’t stress yourself out over it. As far as which rifle, I’d really recommend going with some sort of a custom rig built off the always reliable Remington 700 action. My Christensen is built off of a 700 action in titanium because I was trying to make the gun as light as possible. Which also made the carbon barrel a big plus. The custom job will ensure that your receiver has been trued and faced, and that you have a high quality barrel. You should also be able to have your choice of trigger, which is very underrated in my opinion for accuracy. Having a crisp trigger that fires at the weight you are comfortable with without any creep is huge. It’s amazing how much of a difference that makes. I went with a Timney trigger on mine. A lot of people like the Jewell triggers, and for good reason – they are the best there is. But they are almost too good. They have a huge amount of parts on them and I have heard of problems with them freezing up in extremely dusty or cold conditions, and they are tricky to work on. I’m sure some people on here have them and never had a problem, I just went on the safe side. The Timney isn’t as good as the Jewell, but it’s still a dang good trigger as is the Shilen. You would also have your pick of stock if you went custom. Most stocks are meant for a smaller than average person so that they more or less fit almost anyone. When you hold the gun and are ready to fire the last pad on your trigger finger should be all that is touching the trigger with your arm and hand comfortable but straight. Many times when I pick up a gun and act like I’m going to fire it, half of my trigger finger is past the trigger. I had my length of pull extended almost an inch, and the grip inletted about a half inch and it fits me great. (I’m right at 6’-0”) A custom guy could help you fit your stock to you before you ordered it. Scopes are also extremely important. You don’t want to spend a ton of money on a gun that shoots ½” groups and put a low quality scope on it. I like Leupold, but there are a ton of good scopes out there: Swarovski, Zeiss, Nightforce, etc. Get the best one you can afford. Like I said before I went with the Leupold VXL 4.5-14x56mm and love it. It is the one with the cut out of the bottom of it so that I can mount it as low as a 40mm which allows a good comfortable check weld, but is a bright as a 52mm and the field of view of a 56mm. I like the 4.5 power on the low end and feel the 14 power is plenty for a top end, but you may want a higher power scope. I wouldn't go any higher than 6x for your low end however. When you have your scope, you are going to have to have some sort of bullet drop compensation built into your scope. There are 2 main ways of doing this to my knowledge: turrets and dots. Turrets of course are dialed to the yardage and windage desired and you hold dead on with your crosshair when you fire. Dots or ballistic marks are dots or lines put onto your reticle and represent different yardages. There are companies such as Premier Reticle that will put dots to any yardage you specify using your particular ballistics. I have a rifle with this on it and it works pretty slick. The only problem is that the scope has to be on maximum power (or whatever power you chose) to work. This can be a problem. A friend of mine missed a nice Coues buck with this system because it was getting dark and he had a hard time seeing the buck at the highest power (where his dots worked) He kept going back down to low power to find the deer, but when he went back to the highest power he would lose it. He eventually ended up forgetting to go all the way back to high power and shot 4 times and never touched the deer at 550 yards. It wasn’t until afterwards that he realized he was on the wrong power. Another problem is Premier Reticle no longer is allowed to do Leupold scopes, Leupold wants that business for themselves. But they (Leupold) will only go to 500 yards max with their dots which is about worthless IMO. You can still have Premier Reticle do a scope for you, but they can only do it on Schmitt Bender scopes which run about 2 grand and if you ever change your load or grain of bullet your dots are worthless. There are some scopes out there that come with lines or dots on them from the factory, but these are all for arbitrary distances that you have to shoot to find out what line is for what distance. This usually ends up with a line for like 267 yards and the next line is 380 yards, etc which can lead to some unwanted math in the field. In my opinion, turrets are the way to go. You create a sheet off of a ballistics program, match up the yardage from your cheat sheet to the minutes of angle on your turret, dial it in, hold dead on and squeeze. For spot and stalk applications, it’s awesome. Leupold will also take your particular ballistics and create a custom turret for your exact load that actually has the yardages etched into it for about 80 bucks. ZERO guessing. This is what I did and I really like it. Best thing is the turrets work for any power your scope is on as they are a minute of angle correction, so if it’s too dark to shoot at 14 power I can go all the way to 4.5 power and be right on. And if I ever change my load I can get a new custom turret for that new load for around 80 bucks. I hope I somehow help in all that rambling. I’m not sure if it’s ok to post that guy’s info on this thread as it might be seen as advertising so I’ll send it to you in a PM, along with how much I dropped on my rifle. Good luck on your purchase.

 

 

Kevin

Thanks for the help, you just opened a huge frickin can of worms!LOL! What I mean by that is now that you told me about everything that has worked for you I see that I won't be happy unless I go all the way with building this rifle. I hate to try and do something half butt to try and save money when in the long run spending more up front will actually save me money because I will have to do it again the way it should have been done the first time. Kind of like buying 10 pair of binos only to wind up spending $2000 on a pair of Swarovski's when it is all said and done. Again thanks for your help and time everyone! I am off tommorrow eve to kill a piggy.........

[TAM]

In my opinion the Jewell triggers are the best, but to me they are about equal with a Timney down to about 2.5 pounds. Once you drop below that is where the Jewell's really shine. If you were building a rifle for the bench I'd put a Jewell in it. If you are building a rifle to hunt with I'd save the money and put a Timney in it because you probably aren't going to set a hunting rifle below 2.5 pounds.

 

I'm currently having a custom .300 RUM built from the ground up. I'm having a gunsmith in Iowa named Todd Bettin build the rifle. They're not inexpensive, but if you truly want to have a rifle that you can be confident in at long range I would look into some of the different custom rifle builders. There are many good choices out there and several have been mentioned. I also have a Christensen Arms rifle and love it. The carbon wrapped barrel really keeps the weight down. This new custom I'm having built will have a 28 inch ABS carbon wrapped barrel, which from the research I've done is supposed to be a superior system to the Christensen Arms barrels. I can't wait!!!!

 

Don't for one second think that a custom rifle is a must have to kill animals. But if you can afford to have one built they sure are fun to shoot!!!

 

Good luck!

[Coues Sniper]

dang Kevin.....you are da man! Very informative to say the least!

 

Just to add something, you mentioned about getting fitted for a custom stock.......I did that for mine and was told that it's best to put on a jacket when doing this 'cause usually you'll be wearing one in the feild and it makes a difference on where your finger reaches the trigger.

 

Also, about the Jewell trigger....Thats what my buddies have and it's amazing to shoot.....but I'm not good with working with mechanical things like that so you got me interested in the Timney trigger. How often will I have to mess with the Jewell trigger if I get that one? Is it often enough that I should go with the Timney for the same reasons as you did? Thanks, JIM>

Jim, I'm no expert - I just did a ton of research for my rifle. I wanted to make the most informed descions i could. I've never owned a gun with a jewell trigger on it. I have shot a couple, and man are they sweet. You just squeeze and it never seems to move, even when the rifle fires. Once you have it set to the weight you like (which you should have a gunsmith do) you shouldn't have to mess with it. I've just heard of horror stories of them sticking, and if it happens in the field - you're screwed. I've never worked on one but have been told it's best to have a gunsmith do any work needed on it. That was enough to scare me. The Timney's are supposed to be pretty much bullet proof and are still really crisp so that's what i went with.

[SunDevil]

just got the cabelas flier in the mail today. they are having a sale this weekend and there is a leupold range finder in their for $220 ($50 off). only thing is it only goes up to 750 yards. you 1,000 yard shooters need something further than that.

[Coues Sniper]

Coues Sniper, great post.

 

Does Swarovski, Zeiss, or Leica make a custom turret for your exact load that actually has the yardages etched into it?

 

Thanks AZ.

 

Not to my knowledge, no. But they really should if they don't. Can't be that difficult for them to do. I did see a company on a DVD set "How to Shoot Beyond Belief" (which is a great DVD by the way - 10 hours!) that if I remember right would do custom turrets for any scope other than Leupold. I'll see if i can find the name.

[firstcoueswas80]

In my opinion the Jewell triggers are the best, but to me they are about equal with a Timney down to about 2.5 pounds. Once you drop below that is where the Jewell's really shine. If you were building a rifle for the bench I'd put a Jewell in it. If you are building a rifle to hunt with I'd save the money and put a Timney in it because you probably aren't going to set a hunting rifle below 2.5 pounds.

 

I'm currently having a custom .300 RUM built from the ground up. I'm having a gunsmith in Iowa named Todd Bettin build the rifle. They're not inexpensive, but if you truly want to have a rifle that you can be confident in at long range I would look into some of the different custom rifle builders. There are many good choices out there and several have been mentioned. I also have a Christensen Arms rifle and love it. The carbon wrapped barrel really keeps the weight down. This new custom I'm having built will have a 28 inch ABS carbon wrapped barrel, which from the research I've done is supposed to be a superior system to the Christensen Arms barrels. I can't wait!!!!

 

Don't for one second think that a custom rifle is a must have to kill animals. But if you can afford to have one built they sure are fun to shoot!!!

 

Good luck!

 

 

Todd is a good guy! He is the man that built my 270 wsm. the gun is a little rough around the edges, but it was a budget it gun ( richards microfit wood stock instead of a mcmillan, mauser action instead of a remington, set poundage bold instead of adjustable) and you know what that thing can do! You will be pleased with it!

[SunDevil]

"and you know what that thing can do!"

 

should I be the first? no I will defer.

[TAM]

The main reason I'm using Todd Bettin is because he is very familiar with the ABS carbon wrapped barrels. He'll be usiing a Stiller Predator action, with an ABS barrel, with a Mcmillian Howler thumbhole stock, Timney trigger, cerra coated, limbsaver recoil pad, removable muzzle break, and Tally rings. I'll probably top it off with my Ziess 6-20 x 50mm scope. Should be a shooting machine and weigh in at about 7 lbs. He guarantees less than 1/2 inches at 100 yards, and says that most will shoot .3's. I've been working hard and saving my pennies for a long time, so I can't wait to get it. It takes about 8 months and I just ordered it, so It won't be done until September.

[Coues Sniper]

He'll be usiing a Stiller Predator action, with an ABS barrel, with a Mcmillian Howler thumbhole stock, Timney trigger, cerra coated, limbsaver recoil pad, removable muzzle break, and Tally rings. I'll probably top it off with my Ziess 6-20 x 50mm scope. Should be a shooting machine and weigh in at about 7 lbs. He guarantees less than 1/2 inches at 100 yards, and says that most will shoot .3's. I've been working hard and saving my pennies for a long time, so I can't wait to get it. It takes about 8 months and I just ordered it, so It won't be done until September.

Sounds awesome TAM, be sure to post some pics of the gun and groups when you get her. And if you wouldn't mind what does Todd charge for a top of the line rifle like that? You can PM me if you'd like.