firstcoueswas80 Report post Posted February 8, 2008 gino, just because you are 2/2 doesnt mean anything. that is a tiny sample size. bottom line is they are TARGET bullets! If Redrabbit decideds not to use them on a COUES because they are target bullets, thats gotta say something. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jamaro Report post Posted February 8, 2008 AZtrapper... Do you have clean your gun any differently? Jason Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coues 'n' Sheep Report post Posted February 8, 2008 gino, just because you are 2/2 doesnt mean anything. that is a tiny sample size. bottom line is they are TARGET bullets! If Redrabbit decideds not to use them on a COUES because they are target bullets, thats gotta say something. Casey, I think the bottom line is that you have made up your little mind and no proof will change that. I am telling you THEY WORK!!! We are going to test them on Piggies in 2 weeks and I will give an HONEST update when get done. I would be a FOOL to use a product that does not perform as I would have hoped. If you talk to the people at or around Berger Bullets they will tell you that they developed a target bullet that has proven to be an excelent hunting bullet as well! Tim was looking for constructive Proof of good or bad, not the gut fellings of nay-sayers! And when and if Doug is kind enough to share his points of view on these bullets I am sure we will all grow from that solid information. However me... being the guy that I am.... will take the proof that 2 little girls gave me over the harsh down talk of a guy that has thrown 11 bullets at the last two deer that he has shot at. Peace-Out!!!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AzTrapper Report post Posted February 8, 2008 AZtrapper... Do you have clean your gun any differently? Jason I don't I clean it the same way, I use patches only with Montana X-treme copper cream, Bore Scubber it's a 2-in1 for copper and nitro fouling and Sweets Once clean patches come out I use a patch with a little oil. Then before shooting I run a dry patch. During the hunting seasons I will only use a oiled patch inbetween hunts, At the range when shooting I clean after every group which is five rounds, then clean the fire one shot before the next group. So I guess you can say I clean every 6 rounds, at the range. AzTrapper Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
firstcoueswas80 Report post Posted February 8, 2008 Casey, I think the bottom line is that you have made up your little mind and no proof will change that. I am telling you THEY WORK!!! We are going to test them on Piggies in 2 weeks and I will give an HONEST update when get done. I would be a FOOL to use a product that does not perform as I would have hoped. If you talk to the people at or around Berger Bullets they will tell you that they developed a target bullet that has proven to be an excelent hunting bullet as well! Tim was looking for constructive Proof of good or bad, not the gut fellings of nay-sayers! And when and if Doug is kind enough to share his points of view on these bullets I am sure we will all grow from that solid information. However me... being the guy that I am.... will take the proof that 2 little girls gave me over the harsh down talk of a guy that has thrown 11 bullets at the last two deer that he has shot at. Peace-Out!!!!! Alright Gino, If I remeber correctly, you were no one shot wonder with your last buck correct? Of course the guys at Berger say their bullets are the best, what kind of marketing would it be if they didn't believe in their own stuff? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TAM Report post Posted February 8, 2008 Casey, I think the fact that Gino is 2/2 with Bergers does mean something. You are right that it's not a large sample size, but it does mean that according to Gino they performed perfectly with the two animals he used them on. I also saw first hand the damage they inflicted on Jason's buck and it was devastating!!! I'm not trying to discredit anything you say, but as I mentioned in my PM, so far you are the only person I've talked with that has anything negative to say about them. You are right they were designed for paper, there is no disputing that. It also appears that they have what it takes to be an effective big game bullet, or at least that is what the vast majority of the evidence I've seen is indicating. I'm smart enough to know that the guys at Berger are trying to pimp there stuff and are probably a little bias. That's why I asked the question here to see if there was real world evidence supporting there claims. I've yet to see any evidence that would fault these bullets for big game. If there is any evidence, I'm listening. Thanks, Tim Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coues 'n' Sheep Report post Posted February 8, 2008 Alright Gino, If I remeber correctly, you were no one shot wonder with your last buck correct? Of course the guys at Berger say their bullets are the best, what kind of marketing would it be if they didn't believe in their own stuff? Nice one Casey! Your right, I sent a finishing shot into the buck as he stood "dead on his feet" 12 yards behind me.... I did not miss 6 times and I did not blow any horns off..... But you still have not answered Tim's question with ANY facts..... give us facts or personal knowledge, Please.... that would be just fine. Thanks. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coues 'n' Sheep Report post Posted February 8, 2008 AZtrapper... Why did you go with the MOLY???? Do you think it is necessary? Jason Jason I went with the Moly for several reasons one from talking with Dave Miller, and Frank Wells (gunsmiths in tucson) They both said that they help "restore" older barrels by filling in pits and such in the barrel, and that will improve groups as well as cut the air better. In my 300 H&H I found the following to be true- the groups tightened up from 1 1/2 - 2 at two hundered yards to 3/4 to 1 inch. Using the same powder and such I also found they have less drop as well. So this was a win win for me and other than having to build a new "cheat" sheet for longer ranges. AzTrapper Trapper, When you switched to the moly coated 168 gr. VLD had you been shooting the regular 168's before that?? Was the a "moly break in" or anything like that?? I thought that the molly was more work, but you make it sound pretty easy?? Thanks for sharing I'd like to know more about it for sure! Thanks, CnS Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
firstcoueswas80 Report post Posted February 8, 2008 John Barnesness wrote a article about the VLD's stating that they penetrated a few inches, then basically "blew up" rarely exiting. Yes, causing massive internal damage. But since when is 2-3 inches of penetration enough? Sure aint enought for me! That is unless of course I keep up the brain shots! ( they work well, Gino you should try em some time!) If you would like to trust a target bullet on the marginal shots, or the close shots be my guest. They are also designed to be seated waaaayyyyy out there... Touching the lands. This may or may not turn your rifle into a single shot type gun. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TAM Report post Posted February 8, 2008 Casey, is this the article you are refering to? http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/hl248partial.pdf You are 100% correct it does seem to indicate that the Bergers penetrate about two inches. After that the pictures also indicate that they open up very quickly and expend nearly 100% of there energy inside the chest cavity of the animal. Wouldn't this be considered a good thing? Also wouldn't a bullet need to have the muscle to penetrate a couple inches of hide and bone to get to the internal organs of an animal? I'm just curious how any of this could be considered a negative. I'm still very open minded and willing to listen to anything that can show a legitimate contradiction to this. For what it's worth I personally don't believe that there is such thing as a single bullet that will preform perfectly in any hunting situation. I think part of considering a bullet should be a careful evaluation of a persons personal style of hunting. For me this means very few shots at under 200 yards. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AzTrapper Report post Posted February 8, 2008 Trapper, When you switched to the moly coated 168 gr. VLD had you been shooting the regular 168's before that?? Was the a "moly break in" or anything like that?? I thought that the molly was more work, but you make it sound pretty easy?? Thanks for sharing I'd like to know more about it for sure! Thanks, CnS When I switched I made sure my barrel was as clean and copper and lead free as I could. Then I started off shooting the moly's as if I was breaking in a new barrel. Fire a round and run a cleaning patch or two then fire a round and run a cleaning patch or two I did this for the first 25 rounds. I can't really say why I did that but I did. I notice a change within the first 10 rounds. I don't believe moly is anymore work for the gains I have gotten but then again reloading and shooting is always fun and never work. I did shoot 168's before that most of the time, I have some factory 180's that I have been shooting for the brass it's the only way I can find nickle plated brass for a 300H&H. They shoot fairly well about 2.5 inches at 2oo yards. AzTrapper Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Huntn coues Report post Posted February 8, 2008 WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sounds like this is the bullet to beat. Broadside shots , quartering away shot , shots to far back "liver burger" amazing. Just think this bullet penetrates thru hide , muscle , ribs or shoulders a couple of inches BEFORE it starts its expansion Very useful info. Thanks Tim. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GameHauler Report post Posted February 8, 2008 Great read Tim. Thanks for the link Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jamaro Report post Posted February 8, 2008 Great read Tim. Thanks for the link Smart A$$.... I think Red Rabbit posted it once and I posted it once.... I even posted it in a thread that Red Rabbit Started because I take the small bus... :lol: :lol: J- Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Huntn coues Report post Posted February 8, 2008 Great read Tim. Thanks for the link Smart A$$.... I think Red Rabbit posted it once and I posted it once.... I even posted it in a thread that Red Rabbit Started because I take the small bus... :lol: :lol: J- That's the short bus. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
