Changes in 2008

[coueschaser3]

That just seems like it could cause problems, "well i thought it was a big deer" or "Well mr. officer it looked like an elk to me".

 

Why should the above be anymore of a problem than when a hunt for a single species takes place in units with both deer and elk in it?? -TONY

 

More folks in the field. Uneducated deer tag holders seing folks driving out with "350" coues deer", i just make it a habit to never underestimate stupidity.

[jeepers creepers]

That just seems like it could cause problems, "well i thought it was a big deer" or "Well mr. officer it looked like an elk to me".

 

Why should the above be anymore of a problem than when a hunt for a single species takes place in units with both deer and elk in it?? -TONY

 

More folks in the field. Uneducated deer tag holders seing folks driving out with "350" coues deer", i just make it a habit to never underestimate stupidity.

 

Yeah, I can't stand when there is 2 hunts going on at the same time in the same unit.

[Coues79]

http://www.azgfd.gov/pdfs/h_f/2008hr/2008-...mmendations.pdf

[Red Rabbit]

WAIT WAIT WAIT! So i drew a 21 bull tag with the specific purpose of not having to hunt with 10000 other people and they are gonna throw a coues hunt in on me? I really hope thats just some units cuz that would billyjack my hole plan.

 

It looks like you can breath easy. I do not notice a muley or coues hunt overlapping your Thanksgiving elk hunt in 21. No overlap in 6A, 8, 22, 23 either.

[Diamondbackaz]

You have 4 coues seasons now instead of 3. Three seven day hunts and the December late hunt. Byby 10 day hunt.

[Outdoor Writer]

That just seems like it could cause problems, "well i thought it was a big deer" or "Well mr. officer it looked like an elk to me".

 

Why should the above be anymore of a problem than when a hunt for a single species takes place in units with both deer and elk in it?? -TONY

 

More folks in the field. Uneducated deer tag holders seing folks driving out with "350" coues deer", i just make it a habit to never underestimate stupidity.

 

More folks in the field -- yes.

 

The rest makes no sense. If deer or elk hunters are "uneducated" when two seasons are going on at the same time in a unit where elk and deer live, those same hunters get no smarter when only one season is going on. So if they're going to kill the wrong species because of "stupidity" that none of the more intelligent folks here exhibits, they will do so regardless. Of course, figuring that out is pretty simple with some intelligent thought. -TONY

[Red Rabbit]

With the proposed hunt recommendations, I see some advantages:

 

1) The number of permits in each hunt has been reduced substantially. Those that ran into other hunters previously be may be relieved with fewer competing hunters. This reduction per hunt is due to the new Nov hunt addition.

 

2) There is no overlap of the coues hunts with the mule deer, junior deer, or junior javelina hunts. Those with kids will like this, and those who have a friend drawn for another hunt can help out still.

 

3) An increase in the number of Dec coues permits to 12-16% of the total. (Previously the % of Dec permits was less than 10%) This will fall under the guidelines that up to 30% WT killed are during the Dec hunt, as the Dec success is nearly double the Oct/Nov success.

 

4) A coues hunt offered over Thanksgiving weekend, which some may like due to having those 4 days off already without using vacation days.

 

5) The number of Kaibab archery permits is proposed at 1000, which will reduce crowding up there.

 

6) Archery deer hunters will be able to have a separate hunt in 13B again.

 

7) January archery deer hunts are proposed in units 4A,B, 8 & 9.

 

8) An increase of 370 Junior deer permits, a 21% increase. This is 4.78% of the total deer permits, and guidelines call for at least 3%.

 

For disadvantages, I perceive:

1) Loss of December permits in non-AHM units to less than 5% from a previous 10%. They range from 2% - 9%, with most being 2-4%. This allowed more permits to be issued in Oct and Nov with les harvest and mor opportunity to hunt. Those that enjoy the Dec hunts like myself will lament this loss, as it was only last year that the Dec permit numbers in most units were increased to near 10%. One step forward, and then slide two back. This is a continuation of last year's move towards more opportunity at the expense of quality, buck:doe ratios, and older age class bucks. imo.

 

2) The loss of OTC archery permits to a draw in units 1, 3ABC, 7.

 

3) The loss of Dec archery season in 15A-D, 17A, 20A, 22, 23, 37A

 

4) the increase of 200 (~30%) Oct 12AW tags and 200 12AW doe tags, which negates last year's reductions.

[Coues79]

I don't like that the only option to hunt for more than one weekend is with the Dec. hunt. I really liked the two weekend Nov. hunt, specifically because the unit that I hunt is quite a ways from where I live. I can only hunt for a weekend or possibly a long (3 day) weekend. If I didn't kill, I could go on to the next weekend. Can't do that anymore.

 

I do like that all the hunts are seperated and do not overlap. It will be nice to have less hunters in the field.

 

With this being the first year, it will be interesting to see the percentage of draw rate next year for this different hunt structure. I wonder which hunts will be the hardest to draw (besides the Dec. hunt)? I imagine the easiest would be the second coues hunt? Who knows.

 

A lot to consider anyways.

[bobbyo]

One thing I can see happening in the southern units is actual vacant tent cities in the southern units from August through December. I might get in the used tent business if this happens.

Bob

[coueschaser3]

Like i said, i just make a habit not to underestimate stupidity. But i would imagine you are right for the most part. Thanks for sheding some light on it Looks like i dont gotta stress over dealin with any more than the normal tag holders out there though. thats nice.

[Red Rabbit]

Here is the schedule of open houses.

 

Monday, April 7, 3-5 p.m. – Arizona Game and Fish Department Pinetop regional office, 2878 E. White Mountain Road.

Tuesday, April 8, 3-5 p.m. – Arizona Game and Fish Department Tucson regional office, 555 N. Greasewood Road.

Tuesday, April 8, 6-8 p.m. – Arizona Game and Fish Department Kingman regional office, 5325 N. Stockton Hill Road.

Wednesday, April 9, 3-5 p.m. – Arizona Game and Fish Department Mesa regional office, 7200 E. University Drive.

Wednesday, April 9, 3-5 p.m. – Arizona Game and Fish Department Yuma regional office, 9140 E. 28th St.

Thursday, April 10, 6-8 p.m. – Arizona Game and Fish Department Flagstaff regional office, 3500 S. Lake Mary Road.

 

Tonight is in Tucson. Did anyone go to the one last night in Pinetop?

 

Q? Last year there were leftover permits in the border units for the early hunts. Why do more December permits still need to be shifted to the earlier hunts?

Using 36B as an example, there were 1099 first and second choice applicants for the 200 December permits, and about and equal 1036 applicants for the 1025 October permits. These numbers seem to show a greater demand per permit for the December hunt, and also seemingly contradict the survey results driving the changes.

[DCMHunter]

There are 700 tag decrease in the December hunts and an increase ranging from 10% to 130% in the number of tags for the early whitetail hunts. The only units that got an increase in the December hunts are the alternative hunt management units. For those that like the other units the chance of getting drawn just went down the tubes. example is the 70% decreae in unit 27 December tags down to 15 tags.

 

The department wants increased oppertunity and increased income. And will throw quality out the window to pad their pockets. Unit 27 had a 130% increase in tags for the early hunt from 150 up to 350.

 

Plan on lossing some more of the unit 27 archery oppertunities with in the next couple of years. With unit 1, 3a - 3c, 3b in the White Mountains going to a draw where do you think all the archery hunters are going to go? My quess is unit 27 BYE BYE January hunt.

 

I have not had time to do a complete review but it looks like deer hunt is going to the masses of peaple.

 

DCM

[Outdoor Writer]

Q? Last year there were leftover permits in the border units for the early hunts. Why do more December permits still need to be shifted to the earlier hunts?

Using 36B as an example, there were 1099 first and second choice applicants for the 200 December permits, and about and equal 1036 applicants for the 1025 October permits. These numbers seem to show a greater demand per permit for the December hunt, and also seemingly contradict the survey results driving the changes.

 

Nah, it isn't a contradiction, nor is it surprising that a LOT of guys apply for the Dec. permits. That doesn't mean they won't accept permits for an earlier season. That fact is proved true when ALL of the leftover permits disappear rather quickly once they become available. It's just the nature of the beast that many hunters will apply for the most difficult permit to pull as their 1st choice.

 

Sooo...knowing that happens, G&F removes X number of permits from a Dec. hunt that has a high success rate to another hunt where the rate is half as much or less. By doing that, they can not only add the permits from the Dec. hunt, but feasibly DOUBLE the number yet not have any more of a biological impact on the deer population in that unit. And, using simple math, more opportunites to hunt deer are available to EVERYONE.

 

What I can't understand is how anyone sees the removal of permits from a Dec. hunt as a drop in quality. That IS a contradiction. I'm not sure of the number of times I've read here about having more hunters in the woods means a less-than-quality hunt. Then when the number of hunters is cut, it still means a drop in quality. Geez, it can't go both ways. -TONY

[Red Rabbit]

Q? Last year there were leftover permits in the border units for the early hunts. Why do more December permits still need to be shifted to the earlier hunts?

Using 36B as an example, there were 1099 first and second choice applicants for the 200 December permits, and about and equal 1036 applicants for the 1025 October permits. These numbers seem to show a greater demand per permit for the December hunt, and also seemingly contradict the survey results driving the changes.

 

Nah, it isn't a contradiction, nor is it surprising that a LOT of guys apply for the Dec. permits. That doesn't mean they won't accept permits for an earlier season. That fact is proved true when ALL of the leftover permits disappear rather quickly once they become available. It's just the nature of the beast that many hunters will apply for the most difficult permit to pull as their 1st choice.

If the department uses first&second choice applications to determine demand, then it is not a contradiction. If the survey takers really wanted to just go hunting, they would have selected these early hunts to guarantee their draw an go hunting. But they didn't.

 

Sooo...knowing that happens, G&F removes X number of permits from a Dec. hunt that has a high success rate to another hunt where the rate is half as much or less. By doing that, they can not only add the permits from the Dec. hunt, but feasibly DOUBLE the number yet not have any more of a biological impact on the deer population in that unit. And, using simple math, more opportunites to hunt deer are available to EVERYONE.

 

What I can't understand is how someone sees the removal of permits from a Dec. hunt as a drop in quality. That IS a contradiction. I'm not sure of the number of times I've read here about having more hunters in the woods means a less-than-quality hunt. Then when the number of hunters is cut, it still means a drop in quality. Geez, it can't go both ways. -TONY

Reducing the number of December tags to 15 in u27, or to 40 in the much larger u33 & u36B is not needed for quality. U36B encompasses over 500 square miles. When the permits were at 10%, were those hunters complaining about crowding?-I didn't hear it.

If lowering the Dec permit numbers increases quality, then just having ONE permit would be the epitome- UH-HUh?

[Outdoor Writer]

Q? Last year there were leftover permits in the border units for the early hunts. Why do more December permits still need to be shifted to the earlier hunts?

Using 36B as an example, there were 1099 first and second choice applicants for the 200 December permits, and about and equal 1036 applicants for the 1025 October permits. These numbers seem to show a greater demand per permit for the December hunt, and also seemingly contradict the survey results driving the changes.

 

Nah, it isn't a contradiction, nor is it surprising that a LOT of guys apply for the Dec. permits. That doesn't mean they won't accept permits for an earlier season. That fact is proved true when ALL of the leftover permits disappear rather quickly once they become available. It's just the nature of the beast that many hunters will apply for the most difficult permit to pull as their 1st choice.

If the department uses first&second choice applications to determine demand, then it is not a contradiction. If the survey takers really wanted to just go hunting, they would have selected these early hunts to guarantee their draw an go hunting. But they didn't.

 

Of course they didn't because they already KNOW there will be less desirable permits available to them in the 3,4,5 choices and with the first-come/first-served leftovers. So they play the long odds early. I did it for many years, though my early choices were for the Kaibab while Coues hunts occupied the 2nd three. I quit that five years ago and don't even fill in the last three choices now.

 

Sooo...knowing that happens, G&F removes X number of permits from a Dec. hunt that has a high success rate to another hunt where the rate is half as much or less. By doing that, they can not only add the permits from the Dec. hunt, but feasibly DOUBLE the number yet not have any more of a biological impact on the deer population in that unit. And, using simple math, more opportunites to hunt deer are available to EVERYONE.

 

What I can't understand is how someone sees the removal of permits from a Dec. hunt as a drop in quality. That IS a contradiction. I'm not sure of the number of times I've read here about having more hunters in the woods means a less-than-quality hunt. Then when the number of hunters is cut, it still means a drop in quality. Geez, it can't go both ways. -TONY

Reducing the number of December tags to 15 in u27, or to 40 in the much larger u33 & u36B is not needed for quality. U36B encompasses over 500 square miles. When the permits were at 10%, were those hunters complaining about crowding?-I didn't hear it.

If lowering the Dec permit numbers increases quality, then just having ONE permit would be the epitome- UH-HUh?

 

Now wouldn't it be a dandy hunt with one permit and a month long season? Talk about ultimate quality. But of course, the quality complaint of too many hunters in the field is not new to this year's proposals; it has gone on for while here. -TONY