Anyone else have "cheap" rifles that shoot stupid accurate?

[firstcoueswas80]

Full custom = ground up.

Semi custom = barrel, stock, trigger and action work.

[40-year-AZ-hunter]

I need an education please. I'm 70 years old and been shooting and handloading since I was 15. My academic background is mathematics (geometry). I'm admittedly not a long range shooter and have owned many rifles and only one custom which was willed to me by a good buddy that passed so it was not built for me.

 

Some on this thread have implied that a factory rifle may shoot fine at 200 yards but not at 600 or 800, whereas a custom rifle will hold groups out to those distances. Can someone please explain the science behind such? If I have a factory rifle that shoots .5moa (or .2 or .3 whatever) at 200 with load X and a custom rifle that shoots .5moa (or .2 or .3 or whatever) at 200 with load X, why would the custom do better at 600? In my mind, the trajectory of each projectile is established by 200 yards and beyond that the wind, etc will affect both the same way. The bullet does not know what rifle fired it and the path is established. The bullet was clearly well stabilized by the twist of each rifle or it would not shoot at 200 so twist is not a factor.

 

I'm serious and hope to learn why between 200 and 600 or 800 etc. the path of the bullet would differ between a cheap rifle and an expensive rifle that both shoot the same size groups at 200.

 

Thanks, Bruce

[CatfishKev]

Whats the difference between blueprinted and bedded?

[trphyhntr]

What's the difference between dead from a stock rifle and dead from a fully custom rifle

[Saguaro]

Blue printing is where the action, lugs and Bolt face are trued and centered. Factory production gets them within acceptable tolerances but they are not perfect. The idea is to get the different surfaces as tight and true and as close to centered as possible. Some of the work is done on a lathe. Bedding is the same idea. Factory stocks have kind of rough openings where the barrel lug and action screws meet it and it's usually loose. The bedding, which is epoxy, closes up those rough openings and better holds the action to the stock.

[lionhunter]

I need an education please. I'm 70 years old and been shooting and handloading since I was 15. My academic background is mathematics (geometry). I'm admittedly not a long range shooter and have owned many rifles and only one custom which was willed to me by a good buddy that passed so it was not built for me.

 

Some on this thread have implied that a factory rifle may shoot fine at 200 yards but not at 600 or 800, whereas a custom rifle will hold groups out to those distances. Can someone please explain the science behind such? If I have a factory rifle that shoots .5moa (or .2 or .3 whatever) at 200 with load X and a custom rifle that shoots .5moa (or .2 or .3 or whatever) at 200 with load X, why would the custom do better at 600? In my mind, the trajectory of each projectile is established by 200 yards and beyond that the wind, etc will affect both the same way. The bullet does not know what rifle fired it and the path is established. The bullet was clearly well stabilized by the twist of each rifle or it would not shoot at 200 so twist is not a factor.

 

I'm serious and hope to learn why between 200 and 600 or 800 etc. the path of the bullet would differ between a cheap rifle and an expensive rifle that both shoot the same size groups at 200.

 

Thanks, Bruce

My point exactly. If I was building a race car that could run a 9 sec quarter mile, and do it "consistently" for 10 grand. why would I pay 100,000 grand to build a custom car that did a 9 sec quarter mile consistently. I get the Coach purse mentality.... but why???? have yet to hear a good reason... the work truck compared to the new ford work truck? nope. "because I want to...…" nope, does not change my mind at all. I have 4 different rifles (6.5 cm, 270 wsm, 300 wsm, and 300 win) that I have had for years that shoot 1/2 moa at 100-1000, and have for many years... not once but ever time I shoot them IF I DO MY JOB.. No, I don't want to bet you and no I don't want to go to competitions…. I am just saying, other than impressing someone who doesn't care what you paid.... why?

[dse]

I need an education please. I'm 70 years old and been shooting and handloading since I was 15. My academic background is mathematics (geometry). I'm admittedly not a long range shooter and have owned many rifles and only one custom which was willed to me by a good buddy that passed so it was not built for me.

 

Some on this thread have implied that a factory rifle may shoot fine at 200 yards but not at 600 or 800, whereas a custom rifle will hold groups out to those distances. Can someone please explain the science behind such? If I have a factory rifle that shoots .5moa (or .2 or .3 whatever) at 200 with load X and a custom rifle that shoots .5moa (or .2 or .3 or whatever) at 200 with load X, why would the custom do better at 600? In my mind, the trajectory of each projectile is established by 200 yards and beyond that the wind, etc will affect both the same way. The bullet does not know what rifle fired it and the path is established. The bullet was clearly well stabilized by the twist of each rifle or it would not shoot at 200 so twist is not a factor.

 

I'm serious and hope to learn why between 200 and 600 or 800 etc. the path of the bullet would differ between a cheap rifle and an expensive rifle that both shoot the same size groups at 200.

 

Thanks, Bruce

 

 

The spin of the bullet is slowing just like the velocity once the bullet leaves the muzzle. At 200 yds and say 2700 fps the bullet may be turning 200,000 rpm's and be fully stable, but at 800 yds and say 1800 fps might only be turning 150,000 rpm's and be slightly unstable.

 

With a factory rifle your twist may just barely stabilize the bullet you want to shoot, but you can pick the optimal twist rate for your custom rifle to match perfect to the bullet you want.

 

Also the way all the parts of a rifle fit together affect the vibrations when it's fired. I do not fully understand this, but I know it causes weird thing to happen to accuracy. I have a old almost factory hunting rifle that will not shoot better than 3/4 moa at 100 yds, but I can shoot 1/2 moa at 800 yds all day long

[40-year-AZ-hunter]

Thanks dse for your insight with respect to twist. That makes sense to me if the custom rifle has a faster twist that is not too fast, which I know can harm accuracy. I'll have to study the physics of the spin as it slows down. Since it takes more twist to stabilize a bullet at higher velocity, it would seem fine that the spinning slows as the bullet's velocity slows, but they may not be proportionate.

 

" I have a old almost factory hunting rifle that will not shoot better than 3/4 moa at 100 yds, but I can shoot 1/2 moa at 800 yds all day long"

 

Now that is fascinating. Intuitively that would seem to defy geometry. Once the angle between two lines (bullet paths of two shots) is established once the bullets are in flight, for that angle to change and always get smaller is hard for me to understand. MOA is "minutes of angle" and for the angle between the lines to always bend together with increasing distance is hard to explain.

[dse]

Thanks dse for your insight with respect to twist. That makes sense to me if the custom rifle has a faster twist that is not too fast, which I know can harm accuracy. I'll have to study the physics of the spin as it slows down. Since it takes more twist to stabilize a bullet at higher velocity, it would seem fine that the spinning slows as the bullet's velocity slows, but they may not be proportionate.

 

" I have a old almost factory hunting rifle that will not shoot better than 3/4 moa at 100 yds, but I can shoot 1/2 moa at 800 yds all day long"

 

Now that is fascinating. Intuitively that would seem to defy geometry. Once the angle between two lines (bullet paths of two shots) is established once the bullets are in flight, for that angle to change and always get smaller is hard for me to understand. MOA is "minutes of angle" and for the angle between the lines to always bend together with increasing distance is hard to explain.

 

 

 

I had heard of others having the same issue and thought it was bs. I figured it had to be the shooter. Out of over 30 rifle's this is the only one that this happens with and it's been doing it for almost 1500 rds. Hopefully this barrel is almost gone and a new Bartlein will fix it!

[BeardownAZ]

Custom anything is nice. But not necessary to kill or be a good hunter or shot for that matter, if that's the argument. I'd say I'm more semi custom myself as I always want a good trigger in any gun minimum, that I shoot. And not many have good factory triggers, some being the exception.

[dse]

Custom anything is nice. But not necessary to kill or be a good hunter or shot for that matter, if that's the argument. I'd say I'm more semi custom myself as I always want a good trigger in any gun minimum, that I shoot. And not many have good factory triggers, some being the exception.

 

 

That would also depend on what you intend to do with the rifle. If you do not glass and just walk around the hills like I used to before I could afford decent glass, a + 2 moa rifle will do the job nicely. Most factory rifles are not usually accurate enough to hit prarie dogs beyond 500 or 600 yds.

[recurveman]

I need an education please. I'm 70 years old and been shooting and handloading since I was 15. My academic background is mathematics (geometry). I'm admittedly not a long range shooter and have owned many rifles and only one custom which was willed to me by a good buddy that passed so it was not built for me.

 

Some on this thread have implied that a factory rifle may shoot fine at 200 yards but not at 600 or 800, whereas a custom rifle will hold groups out to those distances. Can someone please explain the science behind such? If I have a factory rifle that shoots .5moa (or .2 or .3 whatever) at 200 with load X and a custom rifle that shoots .5moa (or .2 or .3 or whatever) at 200 with load X, why would the custom do better at 600? In my mind, the trajectory of each projectile is established by 200 yards and beyond that the wind, etc will affect both the same way. The bullet does not know what rifle fired it and the path is established. The bullet was clearly well stabilized by the twist of each rifle or it would not shoot at 200 so twist is not a factor.

 

I'm serious and hope to learn why between 200 and 600 or 800 etc. the path of the bullet would differ between a cheap rifle and an expensive rifle that both shoot the same size groups at 200.

 

Thanks, Bruce

 

 

 

 

Well here are a few things. If you have a gun that shoots less than MOA out to 1000 yards (or your desired distance) then great. It doesn't happen as often with a factory gun. For most hunters having a factory gun that shoots MOA will get them out to 400 yards and they are done. Go kill stuff and have fun. Once you get past 400 yards there are a ton of variables that will affect your point of impact. One of the big ones is variation in speed from shot to shot (wind is also huge). Reloading can typically take care of the that issue. It can also make the speed variation worse. That is why guys "develop" a load. Basically they try a bunch of crap (powders, bullets, primers, ect) that doesn't work and keep trying stuff until they find something that works great. I would rather have a factory rifle and handloads than a custom rifle with factory loads. A custom rifle with factory ammo is a waste of money in my book.

 

So if you are thinking about building a custom gun I would start with learning how to reload and see if you like it. I personally love all the geeky math crap that is out there. You could get lost in the math and numbers of handloads. The next thing you know you will be looking at powder burn rates, pressures, bearing surface, neck tension, standard deviations and a bunch of other measurements. It is stupid crazy and a blast if you like that stuff. Most of my hunting buddies just want me to get them a load that shoots a good group and be done with it. I love the details of reloading.

 

The other big reason for a custom gun over a factory gun is consistency. Normally a custom gun will have a heavier barrel (so it will be consistent from shot to shot), after market trigger, free floated barrel, action starts life as a trued action. It will shoot great unlike some factory rifles. Some factory rifles shoot great and some suck. Just depends. Also the cool part is you can choose the twist rate. I shoot a 140 grain bullet out of my gun and it requires a 1-8 twist rate (this means that a bullet will complete a full rotation in the barrel in 8 inches. 1 in 12 would be a full rotation in 12 inches). Pretty cool. If I was going to shoot a 120 grain bullet I would choose a different twist rate. I also had the throat of my chamber reamed to fit the longer 140 grain bullet. I would make the throat shorter if I was going to shoot a 120 grain bullet. You can do geeky crap like that. Last barrel I made the neck a little tighter than normal 6.5 X 284 specs. Kind of fun but it gets kind of stupid to own a gun that you can't put factory ammo into. But that is the fun part.

 

Honestly the key to accuracy is putting a bunch of dents in primers. I watched some youtube videos of people shooting long range at WT deer last night. 50-75% of the people missed with their first shot. Some took quite a few shots. Out of the 8-10 people I saw take shots only about 2 of them had any business shooting the distance that they did. The others thought they knew what they were doing and really didn't. Funny part. I knew where they were going to miss and by how far......with their $5,000 rifle topped with a $2,000 scope. It was interesting to watch.

 

If you are into math this sport is a blast. Dive in and have a good time. There are other forums that really get lost in the details too if you want to get stupid geeky. Go check them out too.

[Zeke-BE]

 

I need an education please. I'm 70 years old and been shooting and handloading since I was 15. My academic background is mathematics (geometry). I'm admittedly not a long range shooter and have owned many rifles and only one custom which was willed to me by a good buddy that passed so it was not built for me.

 

Some on this thread have implied that a factory rifle may shoot fine at 200 yards but not at 600 or 800, whereas a custom rifle will hold groups out to those distances. Can someone please explain the science behind such? If I have a factory rifle that shoots .5moa (or .2 or .3 whatever) at 200 with load X and a custom rifle that shoots .5moa (or .2 or .3 or whatever) at 200 with load X, why would the custom do better at 600? In my mind, the trajectory of each projectile is established by 200 yards and beyond that the wind, etc will affect both the same way. The bullet does not know what rifle fired it and the path is established. The bullet was clearly well stabilized by the twist of each rifle or it would not shoot at 200 so twist is not a factor.

 

I'm serious and hope to learn why between 200 and 600 or 800 etc. the path of the bullet would differ between a cheap rifle and an expensive rifle that both shoot the same size groups at 200.

 

Thanks, Bruce

My point exactly. If I was building a race car that could run a 9 sec quarter mile, and do it "consistently" for 10 grand. why would I pay 100,000 grand to build a custom car that did a 9 sec quarter mile consistently. I get the Coach purse mentality.... but why???? have yet to hear a good reason... the work truck compared to the new ford work truck? nope. "because I want to...…" nope, does not change my mind at all. I have 4 different rifles (6.5 cm, 270 wsm, 300 wsm, and 300 win) that I have had for years that shoot 1/2 moa at 100-1000, and have for many years... not once but ever time I shoot them IF I DO MY JOB.. No, I don't want to bet you and no I don't want to go to competitions…. I am just saying, other than impressing someone who doesn't care what you paid.... why?

 

 

 

And yet your camo is top of the line out of control expensive!! But there you are wearing them! Why??? I thought you weren't there to impress people how much money you spent when you can buy something for lot cheaper and do the job!!! ------hmmmm------oh wait maybe you like the design, the feel, the light weight, a hand down, a gift etc etc etc. Or maybe--------you just wanted it. Why do you say why??? People just like to have it because they can!! There is your answer its been said in all 5 pages so far! If you can't come to grips that they want it and you don't, there is no explaining this any further.

[Saguaro]

That's an excellent point about the camo.

[dse]

 

 

I need an education please. I'm 70 years old and been shooting and handloading since I was 15. My academic background is mathematics (geometry). I'm admittedly not a long range shooter and have owned many rifles and only one custom which was willed to me by a good buddy that passed so it was not built for me.

 

Some on this thread have implied that a factory rifle may shoot fine at 200 yards but not at 600 or 800, whereas a custom rifle will hold groups out to those distances. Can someone please explain the science behind such? If I have a factory rifle that shoots .5moa (or .2 or .3 whatever) at 200 with load X and a custom rifle that shoots .5moa (or .2 or .3 or whatever) at 200 with load X, why would the custom do better at 600? In my mind, the trajectory of each projectile is established by 200 yards and beyond that the wind, etc will affect both the same way. The bullet does not know what rifle fired it and the path is established. The bullet was clearly well stabilized by the twist of each rifle or it would not shoot at 200 so twist is not a factor.

 

I'm serious and hope to learn why between 200 and 600 or 800 etc. the path of the bullet would differ between a cheap rifle and an expensive rifle that both shoot the same size groups at 200.

 

Thanks, Bruce

 

My point exactly. If I was building a race car that could run a 9 sec quarter mile, and do it "consistently" for 10 grand. why would I pay 100,000 grand to build a custom car that did a 9 sec quarter mile consistently. I get the Coach purse mentality.... but why???? have yet to hear a good reason... the work truck compared to the new ford work truck? nope. "because I want to...…" nope, does not change my mind at all. I have 4 different rifles (6.5 cm, 270 wsm, 300 wsm, and 300 win) that I have had for years that shoot 1/2 moa at 100-1000, and have for many years... not once but ever time I shoot them IF I DO MY JOB.. No, I don't want to bet you and no I don't want to go to competitions…. I am just saying, other than impressing someone who doesn't care what you paid.... why?

 

And yet your camo is top of the line out of control expensive!! But there you are wearing them! Why??? I thought you weren't there to impress people how much money you spent when you can buy something for lot cheaper and do the job!!! ------hmmmm------oh wait maybe you like the design, the feel, the light weight, a hand down, a gift etc etc etc. Or maybe--------you just wanted it. Why do you say why??? People just like to have it because they can!! There is your answer its been said in all 5 pages so far! If you can't come to grips that they want it and you don't, there is no explaining this any further.

 

 

Camo is not actually for the hunting itself, but to piss all the poor sob's at the convenience store opening morning that are headed to work!