Hunting w/Non-Lead

[Red Sparky]

This just came up on Born and Raised Outdoors. 6 days ago they posted on Youtube coper vs. lead ammo. Interesting to watch but I don't expect to change anybodies minds. Am I going to go to an all copper bullet? I doubt it as I still hunt with a muzzle loader and don't get the velocity to make copper perform the way it should. I will still use steel on my broad heads however since they contain no lead.

[1uglydude]

chomping on bird shot from dove and duck. Usually you spit them out, maybe one or two went down the throat?

 

I'm not a metal expert, but isn't bird shot a lot harder than the lead alloys you'd typically find in a cup and core lead bullet? I would think it would be much harder to break it down in the body before it exits.

[Flatlander]

This pretty strong opinion was specifically referring to muzzleloader hunting on Kiabab. Until they make a long range muzzleloader bullet that can compare to this in all copper I'll stick with what I use. Thanks Andy.

No need to get ruffled, I started this thread to allow discussion on the topic. It was surprising to me how polarizing this issue was.

 

I know before you mentioned that there was conflicting data on this? You mentioned some statistics there, can you share your sources? I really do want to understand the topic better and do my part as a hunter to conserve our ecosystems.

 

It seems that sources like huntfortruth.org think that this research was put forth by econazis intent on banning hunting. Thats why the podcast with Newberg was so enlightening. I would have otherwise never guessed that the Peregrine Fund was established by hunters and was a partner organization to AES, MDF, etc.

 

I have learned a lot in the past few weeks and I am happy to say that endeavor started here. We can use CWT to facilitate conservation if we can just stop griping with each other.

[lonne]

I realized when I was lucky to draw Kaibab many years back I would need to develop a lead-free load and just stick with it. I have yet to take it out to further distances, but it seems I've read everything under the sun about 1) lead-free loads work fine at distance and 2) lead-free loads work disastrously at distance...If I ever go to farther distances, it may be a concern; I'm not sure what the latest findings are on lead-free loads working at long distance. Need to be able to shoot at shorter distances before taking to longer, regardless.

[trphyhntr]

Just shoot 7mm. Nothing walks away from 7mm no matter what you shoot out of it

[Red Sparky]

Just shoot 7mm. Nothing walks away from 7mm no matter what you shoot out of it

Green peas?

[1uglydude]

No need to get ruffled, I started this thread to allow discussion on the topic. It was surprising to me how polarizing this issue was.

 

I know before you mentioned that there was conflicting data on this? You mentioned some statistics there, can you share your sources? I really do want to understand the topic better and do my part as a hunter to conserve our ecosystems.

 

It seems that sources like huntfortruth.org think that this research was put forth by econazis intent on banning hunting. Thats why the podcast with Newberg was so enlightening. I would have otherwise never guessed that the Peregrine Fund was established by hunters and was a partner organization to AES, MDF, etc.

 

I have learned a lot in the past few weeks and I am happy to say that endeavor started here. We can use CWT to facilitate conservation if we can just stop griping with each other.

 

 

I don't know what your son's limitations are following his surgery, but when I have taken kids on the Kaibab doe hunt I have just loaded up the 62gr TTSX for them in 223. It gets the job done, especially when you shoot them in the high shoulder. My tiny little daughter didn't have any problem with it last year, and it was only weeks away from us finding out that the nausea she was feeling was actually a grapefruit sized mass of cancer growing in her gut.

[muledeerarea33?]

According to the state of California............

[wildwoody]

I've killed at 650yrds with Barnes, spot on for me..

[Flatlander]

 

No need to get ruffled, I started this thread to allow discussion on the topic. It was surprising to me how polarizing this issue was.

 

I know before you mentioned that there was conflicting data on this? You mentioned some statistics there, can you share your sources? I really do want to understand the topic better and do my part as a hunter to conserve our ecosystems.

 

It seems that sources like huntfortruth.org think that this research was put forth by econazis intent on banning hunting. Thats why the podcast with Newberg was so enlightening. I would have otherwise never guessed that the Peregrine Fund was established by hunters and was a partner organization to AES, MDF, etc.

 

I have learned a lot in the past few weeks and I am happy to say that endeavor started here. We can use CWT to facilitate conservation if we can just stop griping with each other.

 

I don't know what your son's limitations are following his surgery, but when I have taken kids on the Kaibab doe hunt I have just loaded up the 62gr TTSX for them in 223. It gets the job done, especially when you shoot them in the high shoulder. My tiny little daughter didn't have any problem with it last year, and it was only weeks away from us finding out that the nausea she was feeling was actually a grapefruit sized mass of cancer growing in her gut.

Man I would not have guessed that a 62 gr bullet would perform that well on a high shoulder shot. Good to know.

 

Your daughters story was amazing, and made me 100% grateful for our experience. A great reminder that it could be so much worse. Way to keep your head up and the kiddo going.

[AZkiller]

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20140301/minnesota-hunters-discover-the-truth-regarding-the-misleading-campaign-designed-to-ban-lead-ammunition

 

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20140301/minnesota-hunters-discover-the-truth-regarding-the-misleading-campaign-designed-to-ban-lead-ammunition

 

https://www.futurity.org/lead-californias-condors-831052/

 

I didn't put any hunt for truth links up cuz I guess we can't consider that site for some reason. They don't fit the narrative apparently. They have attempted, are attempting or have succeed in banning lead ammunition in California, Colorado, Minnesota, Illinois and Wyoming. Zinkie reversing the ban federally has had a big effect on slowing the anti narrative but in response there have been numerous stories on why lead is soooo harmful to birds. A Google search will show numerous stories this year on this. Sorta like a correlated effort...

I did search for bald eagles dying of lead poisoning and there are many stories on it for what it's worth. The story that I posted though on blood levels should be done more extensively before any ban is ever imposed. If the G&F was serious about lead being an issue they wouldn't have a muzzleloader hunt. Copper will be next. They will say it's destroying kidney and liver function. Guaranteed. Condors are an easy foot in the door. Avian Jurassic Park, all the birds we have today we're from 4 females. Awesome that they brought them back but humans are part of wildlife as well. Some extrapation is inevitable with industrialization. Those that wish to voluntarily submit thank you for "saving" the condor I guess. If you accept a mandatory forfeiture of your lead ammo you may as well hand over the gun too. If it worked beyond 100 yards in a muzzleloader I would try it. I have attempted to use it and it does not perform in my gun.

[Flatlander]

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20140301/minnesota-hunters-discover-the-truth-regarding-the-misleading-campaign-designed-to-ban-lead-ammunition

 

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20140301/minnesota-hunters-discover-the-truth-regarding-the-misleading-campaign-designed-to-ban-lead-ammunition

 

https://www.futurity.org/lead-californias-condors-831052/

 

I didn't put any hunt for truth links up cuz I guess we can't consider that site for some reason. They don't fit the narrative apparently.

 

What I saw challenged before, and happen to agree with was the scientific basis for that websites assertions. Science isnt about fitting a narrative.

 

They have attempted, are attempting or have succeed in banning lead ammunition in California, Colorado, Minnesota, Illinois and Wyoming.

 

I am

Not sure who you are referring to when you say they, but the biologists who have done the lions share of the research on AZ condors do not support a ban. They have been tremendous advocates for voluntary participation to avoid a ban. They went to CA and shar d the success of what was happening in AZ to try and avoid a ban. Whether bans have been proposed in other states does nothing to prove or disprove whether condors in AZ are impacted by lead in game remains.

 

The story that I posted though on blood levels should be done more extensively before any ban is ever imposed.

 

1. The point of the AZGFD effort is to prevent anyone from every being able to justify a ban.

 

2. We need to be reading research, not stories. Anecdotal evidence is not a sound way to guide conservation. And there is a TON of existing research done on this subject, almost all of it conducted by an AZ resident who hunts and fishes.

 

If the G&F was serious about lead being an issue they wouldn't have a muzzleloader hunt.

 

So you are saying that in order to demonstrate that they are concerned they need to remove opportunity from hunters? Why shouldnt they try to maintain opportunity by changing Hunter behavior? Thats exactly what they should do. That is what could nservation is, finding a way for humans to coexist with natural environments while still

usimg then.

 

Copper will be next. They will say it's destroying kidney and liver function. Guaranteed.

 

If you say so.

 

Condors are an easy foot in the door. Avian Jurassic Park, all the birds we have today we're from 4 females. Awesome that they brought them back but humans are part of wildlife as well. Some extrapation is inevitable with industrialization.

 

We cannot in earnest assert that Hunting is Conservation while also simply brushing off extinction of a species as acceptable collateral damage to recreation. Especially when simple bahavioral modifications could completely change the outlook for said species.

 

Those that wish to voluntarily submit thank you for "saving" the condor I guess.

 

You are welcome when the CBD cant put an ad on tv saying hunters wiped out condors the next time they want to ban something. All the raffle / auction tag money in the world couldnt wait n that argument.

 

If you accept a mandatory forfeiture of your lead ammo you may as well hand over the gun too. 1. No one is asking for a forfeit of lead ammo. 2. Did you warm up before you made that stretch?

 

If it worked beyond 100 yards in a muzzleloader I would try it. I have attempted to use it and it does not perform in my gun.

 

No one even mentioned your gun or your hunt. You are making that connection. But since you are, no big deal, you can just pack out the carcass.

 

Also, would still like to see sources on the comment that only 1 condor has died from lead poisoning and that it had an appetite for it eating more than 300 pcs.

See my comments in quotes above. ☝️☝️☝️

 

Anyway, the point of this thread wasnt to pick a fight, it was to bring awareness to something that was recently brought to my attention. I appreciate the comments that others have contributed.

 

I hope Amanda will see this and chime in, as well as some of the other biologists who hang out here. I think Amandas avian work would bring some great insight.

[Delw]

Barnes bullets are extreamly accurate. only problem is after 5-10 shots accuracy deteriorates fast due to high velocities and loading up the rifling .

killed a few small couse deer in unit 33 with them in my 22-250 out to about 350-400 yards.

most non lead bullets do ok for hunting.

but the bottom line its not a requirement or mandatory to use them. so if someone doesn't want to who cares.

 

still have yet to seen ONE dead crow , hawk bald eagle owl ect etc in the killing fields of seligman. back in the 80's to mid 90's we were up there every weekend during the spring summer and fall 2000+ rounds a weekend easy.

[trophyseeker]

Got this in email today:

 

***************************************************

Groups aim to boost non-lead ammo for ecosystem health

Posted July 9, 2018

 

** This news release was issued jointly by the North American Non-Lead Partnership, of which the Arizona Game and Fish Department is a member. **

 

Wildlife agencies and sportsmen’s groups join coalition encouraging hunters to choose non-lead ammo when hunting

 

The North American Non-Lead Partnership — formed late last year by the Oregon Zoo, The Peregrine Fund and the Institute for Wildlife Studies — seeks to expand the coalition of hunters, anglers and other conservationists dedicated to improving ecosystem and wildlife health by choosing non-lead options.

 

“This is a long-term, multi-organization effort to help North America’s wildlife,” said Leland Brown, the Oregon Zoo’s non-lead hunting education coordinator and a lifelong outdoorsman. “Many of us are hunters ourselves, so we have a personal connection to this project. We’re proud of the contributions we’ve made to conservation, and we hope to inspire more outdoor enthusiasts and organizations to lend their support and help realize this vision in the months and years to come.”

 

Three state wildlife agencies — the Arizona Game and Fish Department, Utah Division of Wildlife Resources, and Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife — have recently joined the partnership, and at least five sports groups have pledged their support. One, the Arizona chapter of the National Wild Turkey Federation, even committed to an annual donation to support the efforts.

 

“ODFW supports a voluntary strategy to increase the use of non-lead ammunition among hunters in Oregon,” said Curt Melcher, Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife Director. “We’re pleased to join the North American Non-Lead Partnership so we can increase our efforts to educate and encourage hunters to voluntarily switch to non-lead ammunition.”

 

“We’re excited about the partnership and confident that working with stakeholders — on all sides of the lead issue — is necessary to ensure the long-term health of Utah’s wildlife and their habitats,” said Mike Fowlks, Utah Division of Wildlife Resources Director. “We recognize the role that stakeholder engagement has in wildlife management and look forward to working cooperatively with the program partners.”

 

“The Arizona Game and Fish Department is committed to conserving and protecting Arizona’s diverse wildlife, which is why we are lending our support to the North American Non-Lead Partnership,” said Jim deVos, Arizona Department of Game and Fish Assistant Director for Wildlife Management. “Our department has placed non-lead ammunition into the hands of our hunters and worked to inform the public to consider switching to non-lead ammunition to better protect our wildlife and human health.”

 

Since the 1980s, people have worked to remove lead from paint, gasoline and plumbing, but it still can pose a threat to wildlife. When scavenging birds and mammals eat the remains of carcasses shot with lead ammunition, tiny fragments of the heavy metal can be ingested and then absorbed into their bloodstream, often causing long-term side effects and sometimes even death. Non-lead ammunition options, such as high performance solid copper bullets, help prevent lead poisoning in scavengers like bald eagles, golden eagles and other birds of prey.

 

The North American Non-Lead Partnership works to engage hunters and other wildlife enthusiasts by:

 

Designing and promoting voluntary measures to increase the use of non-lead ammunition

Supporting the continued long-term viability of scientifically managed hunting and the associated conservation culture by providing programs that encourage sports-men and -women participation in conservation actions

Supporting continued efforts to conduct scientific research into the relative risk associated with specific lead exposure pathways between use of lead ammunition and wildlife

Using scientific evaluation to assess and improve programs

 

“Voluntary lead-reduction programs in Arizona and Utah have been very successful,” said Chris Parish, The Peregrine Fund’s director of conservation. “We want to see these voluntary efforts expanded across North America. We are confident that as this partnership expands, more hunters and organizations will join.”

 

The three founding organizations that launched the new partnership were inspired by the success of the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation, recognizing a long tradition of conservation among America’s outdoor sports enthusiasts.

 

###

[ThomC]

Never fear the "allowing of the voluntary use of copper bullets" is a foot in the door for the ammo banners. AZGFD is trying to slow the tide of the total lead ammo banners.