Hunting w/Non-Lead

[Flatlander]

So recently Im another thread a debate arose concerning using non-lead ammunition North of the Colorado River.

 

I was susrprised that some folks had pretty strong opinions against this. For me I have always just accepted AZGFDs request for hunters not to use lead as legitimate. Based on their opinions I dug in and pretty quickly found some scientific studies that provided direct connections between hunting ammunition and condor mortality. (Patterns of Mortality, 2012). That was enough for me. But I was surprised at how divisive this topic was. I had no idea of the ban in California or the issues that some of these studies had caused there.

 

Since that discussion I came across a podcast by Randy Newberg that addressed the topic. He spoke with two biologists who actually carried out mortality studies on condors on the strip and Kaibab. Both of these guys are hunters and had first hand knowledge of hunting practices.

 

This was a very insightful, science based discussion on the topic. I had no idea the issues that can arise for raptors from lead in carcasses and specifically what that means for condors.

 

I hope others had a chance to listen. I really appreciate the material many of these podcasts like Rinella and Newberg bring to the forefront for dumb old guys like me to use to get educated.

[MT_Sourdough]

Like I have stated in other posts, I have hundreds of pounds of pb in my garage. I cast my own bullets including a few that are of my own design. I have, in particular, a 400 grain bullet that is the product of years of trial and error and was created with the dream of a buffalo hunt.

So here I am with a buffalo tag for the House Rock herd and you know what I am doing? I'm spending lots of money on ammo to comply with their request to use unleaded bullets. I still get to use my 444, because Lehigh Defense just put out a 444 load with a completely new bullet.

Sorry about the huge pic, but that's it. Interesting, huh? Anyways, the load the Lehigh uses is a lousy one in my opinion and it falls about 200 fps from it's claimed velocity. So I have to buy the ammo and pull the bullets just to reload them with a load I haven't developed yet.

There is hardly a commercial 44 cal bullet that I haven't done the terminal ballistic testing in water and ballistic gel to know fairly well how they will perform at 444 velocities. Now the 220 gr Lehigh bullet is coming at me from left field and I don't know what to expect. Gonna need to do some more terminal ballistic tests to see how this new bullet performs.

Point is, it's gonna be a lot of work for me to comply, but that's what I'll do. I won't stop using led, but I will for this hunt. I could just buy a Barnes 180 gr ammo for my 300 Win, sight it in, and make it easy, but I want to use my 444.

As far as lead poisoning of carnivores is concerned, I think it answers a lifelong quandary I have had. It's about the fact that nothing would touch the thousands of gophers I shot on the ranch in Montana. Hawks and coyotes and such definitely ate gophers, but they would not go near the ones that are shot. I now believe those critters learned to avoid shot gophers for the reason of the lead, It's the only explanation I have found.

[trophyseeker]

So recently Im another thread a debate arose concerning using non-lead ammunition North of the Colorado River.

 

I was susrprised that some folks had pretty strong opinions against this. For me I have always just accepted AZGFDs request for hunters not to use lead as legitimate. Based on their opinions I dug in and pretty quickly found some scientific studies that provided direct connections between hunting ammunition and condor mortality. (Patterns of Mortality, 2012). That was enough for me. But I was surprised at how divisive this topic was. I had no idea of the ban in California or the issues that some of these studies had caused there.

 

Since that discussion I came across a podcast by Randy Newberg that addressed the topic. He spoke with two biologists who actually carried out mortality studies on condors on the strip and Kaibab. Both of these guys are hunters and had first hand knowledge of hunting practices.

 

This was a very insightful, science based discussion on the topic. I had no idea the issues that can arise for raptors from lead in carcasses and specifically what that means for condors.

 

I hope others had a chance to listen. I really appreciate the material many of these podcasts like Rinella and Newberg bring to the forefront for dumb old guys like me to use to get educated.

 

 

The topic of lead bullets and condors was debated here a few years ago. I would bet many of the studies you found contained the same information Tony Mandile brought up in those debates. He was flamed for providing the info.

 

Below is one of them. Probably can find a few more with a search using "condor" as a key word and "outdoor writer" as author.

 

http://www.coueswhitetail.com/forums/topic/7002-condors-vs-nra/?hl=condors&do=findComment&comment=77799

[PRDATR]

The last time I drew a Kaibab Tag was in 97 or 98 and AZG&F gave me a voucher for lead free ammo so this has been going on for at least that long. As far as I can remember the Barnes X Bullet was the first lead free bullet. I loaded a bunch of 120's in my 7 Mag and dropped a Couse like a sack of potatoes in the early 90's.

The shot was about 200 yards at about a 20 degree downhill shot about 2" off the spine. Also took a Caribou and a black bear with the same load.

[lancetkenyon]

I think IA Born is a biologist that works with AZGFD? He is very passionate about this subject.

 

I went to a shoot put on by the AZGFD & The Peregrine Fund, and it was informative.

 

http://www.coueswhitetail.com/forums/topic/67198-azgfd-ammunition-testing-event-today/?hl=%2Bperegrine+%2Bfund

[Tac]

I feel for you on the non lead bullet development. I spent a few months trying to develope a good shooting non lead bullet for a rifle i have and they just never performed to my expectations. I,m sure that with a barrel change they would improve but the gun shoots the other stuff really well. If i have to go to non lead in that gun I will try again but after a rebarrel.

[AZAV8ER]

I get the lead ban, been dealing with it for decades in my duck hunting. I still remain somewhat skeptical based purely on my own hunting experience. Almost all game I have harvested or seen harvested has been bullets through the chest. Some fragment but maybe half and allot of these fragments are in the shoulder meat or in "Jellied" lung tissue. We pack out all the meat, leaving spine and ribs sometimes. Practically ZERO lead in guts, whatever might be in lungs is in soup that melds into the dirt. How much lead is injected from bird shot in jack rabbits that are just shot and left? Maybe there are more gunshot deer that die and don't get recovered than I realize.

[wildwoody]

Ya from what I've seen in this state during hunts , I would say there are a lot of deer unrecovered, a lot, I bet half the hunters out ther don't check there shot if the animal doesn't drop in its tracks. Ya bone heads.

[AZkiller]

This pretty strong opinion was specifically referring to muzzleloader hunting on Kiabab. Until they make a long range muzzleloader bullet that can compare to this in all copper I'll stick with what I use. Thanks Andy.

[ThomC]

If you read the post from the past you will find proof that the lead story is BS. I just read a post from .270 and he said so.

 

Lead is available to Cali Condors in many forms in nature, not just in fragmented bullets. Some scientists even tried to say that people eating any animal shot with lead bullets would get lead poisoning. It is VOODOO science much like the freon lie and other "science" designed to make money. We now have lead free faucets, lead free gas, lead free diesel, thanks to Cali who are brain dead and it is not from eating lead. It only causes problems in Cali, it says so on lots of paint ,and etc. cans. We dont need no stinkin cali buzzards in AZ. They are too weak to live here, not adaptable, and useless. We have lots of buzzards in AZ that can eat what little lead is in the environment or a carcass and be fine.

[1uglydude]

It's been settled science for well over one hundred years that lead exposure is toxic to humans. I only load and shoot barnes bullets because I don't like the thought of lead fragments in my meat...especially the stuff I feed to my kids...I didn't have much in the way of brains to give them in the first place, and I don't want to risk handicapping their development even more.

 

That being said, I wonder how quickly lead can be ingested into the system. If a kid gets a few shards of lead in his burger, does his body have time to absorb much of it before it passes through him? If some does get absorbed, then how much is too much? In the end, I choose to err on the side of safety. I've never lost an animal to a Barnes bullet, and I've been able to get them to group well within hunting standards, so I have no reason to stop using them.

[cjl2010]

Starting next year Im gonna try either Hammer or CEB solid copper bullets. My hunting is from 700 yards and in so BC loss shouldnt be much of an issue.

 

As Im sitting in the hospital waiting for my second kid to arrive, this place creeps me out and makes me start thinking about lead and all the other crap we put in our body. Might not be a bad idea to control what we can.

[AZAV8ER]

Birds are very susceptible to lead poisoning because fragment/shot that are ground into powder in the gizzard and ends up passing into the bloodstream. Grew up with my 4 brothers and sister chomping on bird shot from dove and duck. Usually you spit them out, maybe one or two went down the throat? So far all going on 60 plus years old with two PHD's and 5 master degrees among us. If not for that lead poisoning we could be ruling the WORLD. (yes lead is not good for you, but what little you are exposed to from consuming game does not appear to have been overly detrimental)

[HuntHarder]

Do you think without the lead, your siblings would still have those degrees?

[AZAV8ER]

copper bullets pose significant fire hazard

rmrs_rp104.pdf