New Mexico Elk Hunt - Access Issues

[1uofacat]

1uofacat,

I will try to address each of your points. Through all of this, my attempt is for you to look at the whole picture. I hunt coues every year, I have 2 daughter and a wife that all killed a coues the last 2 years and love to hunt myself. I have a daughter who also has an elk tag this winter. I love to hunt as much as anyone. I want access like everyone else. I also worked for ASLD as a range specialist in the past. I saw first hand how much work had been done in the past to calculate carrying capacity for each permit. There is a 20+ study the Arizona Land Dept and AZGFD has been doing on the Chevrolet butte, diablo canyon and flying M ranches on the effects and and overlap of grazing of cattle and elk. Moderate stocking rates do not have a negative effect on elk. ASLD has set grazing now numbers at moderate levels. Heavy grazing isnt good for any animal, cattle included.

Looking at one side of the fence, thats not misinformation, thats ignorance. The side that has cattle will obviously have less forage. But has it occurred to you that the side that looks better was also grazed the year before and depending on the rotation hasnt been grazed yet that year? Also many studies across the West show moderate grazing has a positive impact on forages.

The highs of the cattle market was about a 2 year isolated event, that was the exception not the norm. Like I said, your everyday rancher is not getting rich, if they get 2-3% ROI that is considered doing well.

Cattle cannot ruin a hunt. There is so much access and huntable areas that if your reasoning is cattle make your hunting area bad then you are not trying too hard.

Working at ASLD, I have seen solar panels stolen, wiring pulled from wells, and storage tanks shot to pieces. Vandalism to one storage tank could cost 5k. One cow that is shot is 1k. The first time you had to pay 5k for a new storage tank would make you pretty upset, after the second and third, just imagine the anger you would feel. I used to deal with those issues on a weekly basis. I guarantee after you lost 15k due to a few bad apples, you wouldnt be so welcoming.

Fling,

We are going to have to “agree to disagree” as you seem to want to force your personal opinions, based apparently on what you’ve seen or read, onto my personal observations. I'm not surprised to learn you work for a state agency and you appear come across as though your opinions, or those of perhaps the AZGFD, or other state or federal agencies, are the only ones that matter. For the record, those outside some of these agencies are not as “ignorant” as you imply or that we don’t look at the “whole picture”. Simply because we don’t agree with your opinions does not mean our comments are based on misinformation, or that we’re simply ignorant. I grew up in Tucson learning from the late great John Doyle and the Levy brothers, who taught us to love to hunt and fish, appreciate wildlife, and the privilege we have to do so. They also taught us to “pay attention” to everything that affects what we love to do (& not only outdoors, but as it relates life in general). One of my career options was to become a biologist/WM for the AZGFD, however those who I personally knew and hunted with (in Tucson) helped me decide that a career with the AZGFD was not in my best interest as for many WMs the outdoors became their job and stopped being their “love”.

 

Regarding coues habitat, I grew up hunting those beautiful little deer in southern Arizona including the Santa Ritas, Whetstones, Ceinega Creek, a small area near “The Narrows”, Huachucas, San Cayetanos, Baboquivaris, Rincons, Catalinas, Sierritas, Patagonias, Canelo Hills (to name some of them), and more recently hunting whitetails in Coconino and Kaibab counties in Northern AZ. I've either passed up on or taken deer from all of them dating back to the early 70s. Congratulations on your recent successes on some coues, they are great fun to hunt! For the record, I don't believe livestock affects coues habitat much, nor did I ever mention coues habitat because of where coues live in comparison to elk. My opinion is that their habitat is just too rough for significant cattle ranching operations in many of those areas. I cannot imagine having to manage fence lines, much less round up cattle in some of that country. In "coues country", cattle may be at times a nuisance, but never more than that as far as I’m concerned. BTW, the data you referenced on cactus and mice is great, but has nothing to do with what I was referring to.

 

Besides, deer are browsers whereas cattle are grazers. Deer and cattle feed on different plants for the most part. While deer can eat grasses, their stomachs cannot digest the vast amounts of grasses that cattle can. Deer actually prefer forbs to the most indigestible and fibrous of plants, which are the grasses that elk and cattle digest regularly. I believe it has to do with how their stomachs work, but I’m not a biologist, I’m only an engineer (that sometimes pays attention).

 

My experience hunting elk started in the late 70s and I’m still learning today. As stated earlier, I have seen the effects from what (clearly) appeared to be overgrazing many times in my life, in both Arizona and New Mexico, and for the record those areas were primarily elk habitat (central/northern AZ and in northern NM). I have not personally seen overgrazing issues during my Colorado hunts, however I’m not surprised by that given the different habitat as well as many other factors. Yes, I’ve seen cattle “overgraze” areas in southern AZ as well, but knowing they aren’t competing for the same feed as deer I largely ignored them. I at times “felt sorry” for the cattle given their apparent plight. I'm glad to read what you stated, assuming it's accurate, regarding the ASLD and how they are currently viewing this issue overall. What I’ve seen over the decades has led me to believe that it wasn't always the case. That’s fine too, if we learn from our mistakes and move forward.

 

Regarding cattle and elk however, when cattle move into an area, elk largely move elsewhere or seem to avoid that area all together. Can cattle therefore “ruin” a hunt? That depends on the size of the “pasture” they’ve been moved into. I’m referring to the effort that has gone into a particular area such as scouting, setting up blinds or treestands on trails and/or water be that natural or not, numerous trips etc., only to find that cattle have been moved into that same area making all of that effort/time/money spent wasted. Can we hunt elsewhere? Sure, we have to go elsewhere as the cattle can essentially take over an area. Just because we can hunt elsewhere does not mean that cattle moved into "favorite hunting locations" haven't ruined someone’s hard work and/or even adversely affect their overall hunt. For that, we can disagree.

 

If by chance, the “cattle gods” approve & move significant numbers of cattle, right before your hunt, into the same areas you’ve spent substantial time and effort on scouting, setting up blinds or treestands, where you’ve seen a high concentration of elk for weeks or even months (and sometimes years), you may feel otherwise regarding cattle “ruining” a hunt, indirectly or otherwise.

[Flingingarrowsbro]

Yes I guess we can agree to disagree. And just because I used to work for ASLD doesnt mean I agree with how the look and deal with management of state trust land. Yes I have seen overgrazing as well, and yes I make observations with my own eyes. I guess what it really comes down to, its hard to see someone who hunts a few hunts a year, dictate and think their recreation trumps someones livelihood. Like someone stated earlier, there are plenty of options to hunt and camp somewhere else. Happy hunting