Conserve and Protect (Tags) Presentation at G&F Mtg

[Flatlander]

Still lots of misinformation here.

1. CAPAZ will get NO tags and NO money by law. The raffle tags will be administered by a committee similar to the one that handles the HPC funds, and will be made up of members of the Department, Commission, and sportsmen representation.

 

2. The super raffle style tags will be capped at 7, and the general raffle tags would be around 100.

 

3. Legislation is required so the funds go to the program as intended, not spent on tree frogs or bogus trail camera restrictions. This is how we protect our investment, just as HPC funds are protected by legislation.

 

4. A DNR is exactly what this program seeks to prevent. The end goal is public opinion in our favor,so Constitutional right to hunt and fish is possible.

Red, please post the proposal where the numbers of tags (or any other black and white info) has been published.

 

I havent seen anything in writing yet, so all we are able to argue is what Pete said less than 1%.

[Nefarious Red]

I agree, Flatlander, that part is speculative. But the rest is solid. CAPAZ gets NO tags. Will the Commission be willing to fund this project with raffle tags? I'm not sure. Would they be willing to fund it with a fee increase? I'm not sure about that, either.

 

I do know that the program that these funds would go towards already exists within the Department, and the Commission has expressed the interest in funding it. At this point, I'm at a loss as to how they would expect to do that if they aren't interested in the options provided.

[Flatlander]

I agree, Flatlander, that part is speculative. But the rest is solid. CAPAZ gets NO tags. Will the Commission be willing to fund this project with raffle tags? I'm not sure. Would they be willing to fund it with a fee increase? I'm not sure about that, either.

 

I do know that the program that these funds would go towards already exists within the Department, and the Commission has expressed the interest in funding it. At this point, I'm at a loss as to how they would expect to do that if they aren't interested in the options provided.

No one is arguing that.

 

What we are raising awareness about and calling action against is Petes singular and unwavering resolution to pull tags out for CAPAZ to utilize for fundraising for non-hunter education.

 

No less than 12 other ideas have been proposed by folks outside of CAPAZ, and yet, Pete brought 1 and 1 only to the table at the workshop.

 

Pete is a liar, and we need to standup to him.

[Nefarious Red]

CAPAZ doesn't get any tags. They suggested it, just as you guys will suggest a license fee, and I suggested a lottery.

 

The committee will ultimately decide, not the Department, the Commission, CAPAZ, or us.

 

By now, the Commission has received so many emails from people against every form of funding, it's hard to say if they will act on the plan that even they want, and just leave us all to fend for ourselves. I tend to think that the Commission should be doing more for us as hunters, but at this point I'm not sure. I wish looking out for hunters was more of a priority than trail cameras, but what can I do.

[300RUM]

CAPAZ doesn't get any tags. They suggested it, just as you guys will suggest a license fee, and I suggested a lottery.

 

The committee will ultimately decide, not the Department, the Commission, CAPAZ, or us.

 

By now, the Commission has received so many emails from people against every form of funding, it's hard to say if they will act on the plan that even they want, and just leave us all to fend for ourselves. I tend to think that the Commission should be doing more for us as hunters, but at this point I'm not sure. I wish looking out for hunters was more of a priority than trail cameras, but what can I do.

It doesn't matter that the tags do not go to CAPAZ. What matters is that the CAPAZ proposal intends to distribute tags in a manner where the wealthy have an advantage in obtaining them.

 

The wealthy hire guides. Pete Cimellaro owns Yellowhorn Outfitters. How much will he profit from the CAPAZ proposal?

[Nefarious Red]

I don't see how the wealthy would benefit from raffle tags, unless there was predetermined amount and a singular person could purchase all of them. I definitely don't think that would be a good idea, I'd like to see a cap on the amount an individual is able to purchase.

 

When you look at the raffles for the HCP funds, it's always the average guys that win. The committee overseeing the program would be similar to the Big Game Super Raffle already in place.

[300RUM]

I don't see how the wealthy would benefit from raffle tags, unless there was predetermined amount and a singular person could purchase all of them. I definitely don't think that would be a good idea, I'd like to see a cap on the amount an individual is able to purchase.

 

When you look at the raffles for the HCP funds, it's always the average guys that win. The committee overseeing the program would be similar to the Big Game Super Raffle already in place.

Basic math. The guy who can afford 1000 tickets has substantially better odds than the guy who can only afford 5 tickets.

[Nefarious Red]

The guy that can spend 300 dollars for a sheep tag can afford to buy a tag that someone without 300 dollars can't. Everything about our current system disparage someone else based upon income.

[Ringer]

Google SFW Alaska and Corey Rossi. He was the original founder of SFW Alaska with Don Peay. He was appointed to a top level position over the management of wildlife by political hacks including Sarah Palin. Later he was charged with 12 counts of poaching brown bear for wealthy clients. They used politics and money to bastardize the G&F in Alaska. If Pete was the original founder here in AZ why would we trust anything he says? SFW uses politics to get their people planted in the G&F department then they can have what they want. I don't think Arizona hunters are for that kind of strategy.

[Flatlander]

When you look at the raffles for the HCP funds, it's always the average guys that win. The committee overseeing the program would be similar to the Big Game Super Raffle already in place.

Uh, wrong. Dan Agnew won one. Not exactly an Average Joe, and I have witnessed with my own eyes Cindi Richardson buy a raffle at a banquet by just flooding the bucket with her tickets. I didnt have a problem with it, I have a lot of respect for Corky and Cindy, but to say there is no advantage to the hunting elite is false.

 

Let me make this as crystal clear as possible, I BELIEVE PROVIDING ADDITIONAL OPPORTUNITY AT FINANCIAL PREMIUM IS A PROSTITUTION OF THE NORTH AMERICAN MODEL.

 

We should fight it at every turn.

[Nefarious Red]

That's an entirely different organization and an entirely different plan, Ringer. You can choose to spend your time how you wish, but you still haven't provided any connection between the 2.

 

This plan is for Game and Fish. They raffle the tags if that's the chosen method, they administer and retain the funds, and it is their program. Nobody outside of Game and Fish gets anything.

[Nefarious Red]

Flatlander, you forgot to quote my paragraph above the one you quoted. Obviously if there was a set number of available raffle tickets, and one singular personal was able to purchase them all, it would favor the person who could afford to buy all the tickets. I'm not in favor of doing that.

 

However, a person that can't afford a sheep tag has a better chance, and possibly his only chance, of obtaining one in a raffle. So you could say that raffles put more opportunities in front of the less financially inclined.

[AZkiller]

 

When you look at the raffles for the HCP funds, it's always the average guys that win. The committee overseeing the program would be similar to the Big Game Super Raffle already in place.

Uh, wrong. Dan Agnew won one. Not exactly an Average Joe, and I have witnessed with my own eyes Cindi Richardson buy a raffle at a banquet by just flooding the bucket with her tickets. I didnt have a problem with it, I have a lot of respect for Corky and Cindy, but to say there is no advantage to the hunting elite is false.

 

Let me make this as crystal clear as possible, I BELIEVE PROVIDING ADDITIONAL OPPORTUNITY AT FINANCIAL PREMIUM IS A PROSTITUTION OF THE NORTH AMERICAN MODEL.

 

We should fight it at every turn.

If the goal is to raise as much money as is possible for this program then why does it matter who wins or how many tickets they bought? I put $300 in tickets in one bucket in the bucket raffle at the sheep banquet this year and didn't win. Just because you buy more tickets doesn't mean you win.

[Flatlander]

 

 

When you look at the raffles for the HCP funds, it's always the average guys that win. The committee overseeing the program would be similar to the Big Game Super Raffle already in place.

Uh, wrong. Dan Agnew won one. Not exactly an Average Joe, and I have witnessed with my own eyes Cindi Richardson buy a raffle at a banquet by just flooding the bucket with her tickets. I didnt have a problem with it, I have a lot of respect for Corky and Cindy, but to say there is no advantage to the hunting elite is false.

 

Let me make this as crystal clear as possible, I BELIEVE PROVIDING ADDITIONAL OPPORTUNITY AT FINANCIAL PREMIUM IS A PROSTITUTION OF THE NORTH AMERICAN MODEL.

 

We should fight it at every turn.

If the goal is to raise as much money as is possible for this program then why does it matter who wins

That right there is the issue. The purpose of having tags is not to raise as much money as possible, and never should be.

[Flatlander]

Flatlander, you forgot to quote my paragraph above the one you quoted. Obviously if there was a set number of available raffle tickets, and one singular personal was able to purchase them all, it would favor the person who could afford to buy all the tickets. I'm not in favor of doing that.

 

However, a person that can't afford a sheep tag has a better chance, and possibly his only chance, of obtaining one in a raffle. So you could say that raffles put more opportunities in front of the less financially inclined.

No, I didnt forget it. You said the HPC raffles always go to the normal guys, and that is not true.

 

I dont give 2 squats of bird crap how you administer the tags, I am opposed to using them in the way that has been proposed. Get it through your head I am not debating the particulars of the system, because it is not the particulars I am opposed to, it is the principle.