otc elk tag success ?

[azhuntnut]

I have a pig tag in that area. Maybe I should turn this into a double hunt. David

[mattobertin]

I don't see much of a problem with the OTC tags. I think it is a good deal even if there are not many elk in the areas. I think the price is a little high but if the G&F Dept. uses the money wisely then it is worth it. Just for the record, I don't think they use the money wisely in some cases but that is just my opinion! I think there should be more of these OTC management hunts for instance in unit 5A where I hunt archery elk I saw about 1 cow for every 2 or more bulls. Now I am not a wildlife biologist by any means, but I would think that a season to thin out all of the smaller bulls (like 4pts and smaller) would provide more browse and leave more room for the bigger herd bulls and cows to reproduce. I would set it up like the bear hunt where every hunter has to check in there bull and have a certain quota in each given area that you would have to check the hotline once a week to see if the season is still open. I think this would help mule deer populations in these areas where the elk have taken over. What do you guys think?

[mr.smith]

hey el fuego, you mean all the savings on electricity ain't worth the 22 million they spent? 22 million would only pay for power for about another 86 years in the old bldg and they need to look ahead. heck, you could buy a powerplant for 22 million. Lark.

 

FYI, there are a number of reasons for the move the biggest being:

1. To save the BASF AZGFD took control of it. The cry babies in Anthem were pushing hard to shut it down.

2. The lease was up on the old property. AZGFD did not own that piece of land and were essentially being booted.

 

Since they own the land at BASF it was a logical location for the new facilty

[ac guy]

I have a pig tag in that area. Maybe I should turn this into a double hunt. David

Do you mean Alamo? We saw pigs everywhere yeterday. No sign at all of elk.

[Outdoor Writer]

And here we go again.......

 

The last time the discussion of the new G&F headquaters came up, I made several phone calls to get the FACTS in regards to it. So rather than retype them again, here are the pertinent messages from the other thread. Now y'all pay attention this time. -TONY

 

***************************************************************

 

QUOTE(Red Rabbit @ Aug 7 2007, 07:51 AM)

I believe the cost of the new building will be offset by the sale of the current land and buildings on Greenway.

 

 

Doug,

 

Haven't you yet learned never to put forth facts into a lively discussion?

 

Actually, the deal for the old headquarters complex on the north side of Greenway has already been consummated with Phoenix PD. It's a done deal. I should have the sale figure shortly. The property and buildings on the south side never belonged to AZG&F; they were leasing that part.

 

BUT...even the funding for the new building has an interesting wrinkle to it. The general contractor is building it, and the department will have a 30-yr. lease-back arrangement whereby it pays so much a year toward the actual construction and maintenance costs. In return, the contractor will shoulder all the maintenance and custodial responsibilities for the duration of the lease. After 30 years, the department owns the whole enchilada.

 

Additionally, just the savings in energy operating costs alone, amounting to about 50% less per sq. ft than now, will be substantial at the new complex. -TONY

 

*****

 

Doug,

 

Here's the update straight from the powers-that-be -- the head of the Special Services Division.

 

The property G&F currently occupies sits on 8 acres and has been appraised at $5 million. That area is now zoned as low-density residential, so the only thing that could be built by any developer would be a couple single family houses -- no condos or apartments. The sale is NOT finalized yet, but the city is now negotiating it where either the PD or FD will take over the site.

 

The new quarters will be paid for with bonds up front, utilizing a limited partnership arrangement with everyone involved, and the lease back to pay off those bonds is for 25 years, with an annual payback of about $1 million. After 25 years, the agency owns it lock, stock and barrel. The breakdown of construction costs for what is called an "environmentally advanced" complex is about $16-17 per sq. foot., which as I had mentioned earlier also includes all the maintenance and custodial services. In addition to the energy savings, the rent for the area on the south side of Greenway will also be history. -TONY

 

***

 

Doug,

 

One thing I forgot to mention in my last reply:

 

The annual funding for the new headquarters complex will come out of the Arizona Wildlife Conservation Fund, not the general operating AGFD funds. Here's how Conservation Fund receives its money:

 

This fund was instituted after Arizona voters in 2002 approved Proposition 202, which continued limited and regulated gaming on Arizona tribal lands. Proposition 202 distributes a portion of shared gaming revenues, through the Arizona Benefits Fund, with the State of Arizona and local governments to support specified state and local programs. The Arizona Wildlife Conservation Fund is administered by the Arizona Game and Fish Commission.

 

-TONY

[TLH]

Face it folks--if the game and fish were really all about money they would simply sell the land where the new offices and all of the shooting facility's are at--i think that land was appraised in the range of about 2.8 billion dollars. So, i guess saying the department is all about money is a little lost here then isn't it.

 

There were no more than 15 General contractors wanting to buy the land out near and on Ben Avery and these people actually went to some of our political figures to try and prove that the firing of firearms was a danger to the Pioneer Park and the people in Anthem--it was a hard fought fight that the game and fish won----think of it guys, they could have stayed where they are, sold the land, and lived happily ever after but instead they stepped up and made a big statement to the builders, and if you all were listening, the sportsman as well.

 

I know the Ben Avery doesn't mean much to the folks south of Phoenix but in the big picture and the big fight it should mean plenty to the entire sports community in this state.

 

Oh, and i was out at the new digs last week to get a few things taken care of and i swear i never saw the people buying these OTC elk tags under duress--no guns to their heads or nothing.

[Diamondbackaz]

Here's another look at the OTC tags. It gives those private property owners an opportunity to kill these problem Elk on their land. But the G&F could not just offer specific tags to certain people, they had to offer it to everyone. The people that will get full benefit from these tags are those who know exactly where these elk are, and where they feed.

[Outdoor Writer]

I think there should be more of these OTC management hunts for instance in unit 5A where I hunt archery elk I saw about 1 cow for every 2 or more bulls. Now I am not a wildlife biologist by any means, but I would think that a season to thin out all of the smaller bulls (like 4pts and smaller) would provide more browse and leave more room for the bigger herd bulls and cows to reproduce.

 

These are the stats for 5A from the 2007 AZ HUNT Book. The 2006 bull/cow ratio appears to be almost the opposite of what you saw, i.e. 31/100 or about 3 bulls for every 10 cows. Your sightings would make the bull/cow ratio more like 200+/100. Although the G&F figures are taken POST-Hunt, I would be very surprised if there's twice as many bulls over cows before the hunts. -TONY

 

Year.....Bull/........Calf/

.........100 cow....100 cow

2002......36..........36

2003......46..........41

2004......32..........56

2005......25..........51

2006......31..........37

[jonscaife]

if you dont like the otc elk tags, dont buy one. and buy the way some guys my brother knows took a cow and a decent bull in the verde hunt area.

[Snapshot]

If G&F wants to sell all those tags, and guys are willing to buy them, thats great.

[mattobertin]

I think there should be more of these OTC management hunts for instance in unit 5A where I hunt archery elk I saw about 1 cow for every 2 or more bulls. Now I am not a wildlife biologist by any means, but I would think that a season to thin out all of the smaller bulls (like 4pts and smaller) would provide more browse and leave more room for the bigger herd bulls and cows to reproduce.

 

These are the stats for 5A from the 2007 AZ HUNT Book. The 2006 bull/cow ratio appears to be almost the opposite of what you saw, i.e. 31/100 or about 3 bulls for every 10 cows. Your sightings would make the bull/cow ratio more like 200+/100. Although the G&F figures are taken POST-Hunt, I would be very surprised if there's twice as many bulls over cows before the hunts. -TONY

 

Year.....Bull/........Calf/

.........100 cow....100 cow

2002......36..........36

2003......46..........41

2004......32..........56

2005......25..........51

2006......31..........37

Not trying to start crap but where does game and fish get there numbers from? I did'nt even see a game warden or biologist the entire 11 days I was out there! And then I get a hunter success card in the mail asking me how many turkeys I saw? Well dang man the same people that are trying to count turkeys off of what I saw are also telling me that there are exactly 30 bulls to every 100 cows?? Maybe they should be telling ME, how many turkeys there are! LOL! I have elk hunted in that same unit for a long time now and it seems every year there are more bulls than the previous year and the quality is going down gradually. I am sure the G&F #'s are closer than my assumption but I am just going off of what I saw in the area I hunt in, it is kind of hard to believe something that I did'nt see..........

[Outdoor Writer]

G&F supposedly gets the numbers from the POST-hunt surveys they conduct. These are generally done AFTER the hunts but before the bulls drop their antlers. They don't do game suveys when seasons are in progress.

 

>>it is kind of hard to believe something that I did'nt see.......... <<

 

Hmmm. I can recall several times when I've hunted deer or elk and never saw a buck or bull. Should I have concluded that there were none in that unit??

-TONY

 

"The information is relatively simple to use. Looking

through the section on deer, for example, you will

find a summary of the survey data for both mule deer

and white-tailed deer in each game management unit

having these species. This information will help you determine

whether a unit has a high proportion of bucks

and whether it is experiencing good fawn production.

Bear in mind, however, that due to differences in survey

methods the male to female and female to young

ratios are only estimates."

[mattobertin]

G&F supposedly gets the numbers from the POST-hunt surveys they conduct. These are generally done AFTER the hunts but before the bulls drop their antlers. They don't do game suveys when seasons are in progress.

 

>>it is kind of hard to believe something that I did'nt see.......... <<

 

Hmmm. I can recall several times when I've hunted deer or elk and never saw a buck or bull. Should I have concluded that there were none in that unit??

-TONY

 

"The information is relatively simple to use. Looking

through the section on deer, for example, you will

find a summary of the survey data for both mule deer

and white-tailed deer in each game management unit

having these species. This information will help you determine

whether a unit has a high proportion of bucks

and whether it is experiencing good fawn production.

Bear in mind, however, that due to differences in survey

methods the male to female and female to young

ratios are only estimates."

No you should never conclude that there are no animals just because you did'nt see them. I just happened to see at least 3 herds of elk every day with cows and bulls, with about a million sattelite bulls following them around. That is where I am getting my numbers from, NOT because I did'nt see any cows, the herds just had small numbers of cows in them. (Or so I thought) Compared to previous years.

[mattobertin]

Oh and by the way I just read your book "How to hunt coues deer" and thought it was great. When are you going to write another? Keep em coming, I love to learn new things as long as it has to do with hunting! LOL!

[GRONG]

It's funny that some people are saying they haven't seen an elk on this hunt. Dad and I were out hunting lions Thursday in the VV hunt unit and there was LOTS of sign of them in there. Jumped 2 separate herds while running the dogs but didn't get any good visuals. Never saw a footprint of a hunter out there either and that dirt out there woulda shown it. From what I saw it looked like literally years and years worth of rut elk rubs out there too. Pretty popular place that's getting overlooked for elk hunting bad!! Didn't find any lions but a lot of elk.