ThomC Report post Posted January 2, 2008 You are right. It is another form of slavery. There are many people in our society that will do anything to make a buck. They will hire these illegals because they can use and abuse them. The illegals cannot complain. These are the people that the law will go after. As usual it is the few bad apples that make it necessary to create these laws. There alot of hoops that business people have to jump through. Often times the smart ones survive and the less than desireable don't. That is a good thing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnFriddle Report post Posted January 4, 2008 Who are you to say that $10 an hour is not a liveable wage? I'm sure some people have different standards than you do? Other than workers comp, many citizens don't get any benefits, do you have any idea how much it costs for companies to provide health insurance? I highly doubt you have never worked for a company that pays minimum wage. That is how people get there start in the work force is by getting paid minimum wage and working there way up! You're missing my point! I've never said that businesses don't have the responsibility to make sure their employees are legal. I've simply stood by my belief that after a business is presented with a social security card, picture ID, and fills out an I-9 form the business owner has done his part. If the government is worried beyond that they should do a better job securing our borders and cracking down on those that are manufacturing and using falsified documents. Ill say it again with emphasis. BUSINESS OWNERS SHOULD NOT BE RESPONSIBLE FOR POLICING THE PROBLEM WITH ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION! I want to see the Government(s) do more on there end before they throw it back in the lap of the public to make up for a problem they have ignored for decades! You are wrong about e-verify. It has been stated by the Governor and the Arizona Attorney General that it will remain a voluntary program. Not sure what child molestors has to do with any of this? Not even close to the same. I live in the real world... Thats why I think $10 an hour is not a livable wage... How do you support a family or even yourself on $10 an hour? I guess you could live in your car, but you better not drive it cause that will cost ya $3 a gallon, and since you can't afford a decent car you'll be driving a gas guzzing beater, which is not insured which you can't afford, so you put everyone on the road at risk... Or like I said you could live with 7 other dudes in an apartment... I know all about loaded cost associated with employing someone, it's called the cost of doing business... The right way to avoid paying that is don't hire anyone, get off your a$$ and do the work yourself... Whatever you do don't provide a guy health insurance that way we the taxpayers can provide it for your cheating a$$... But, Like you said $10 an hour and no benefits is a great deal thats why legal employees are beating down the door to get those jobs... BUSINESSES ARE THE ONES CAUSING ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION!!! THE VAST MAJORITY OF ILLEGALS HERE, ARE HERE FOR A JOB!!! THATS RIGHT, DANGLE A CARROT IN FRONT OF A HUNGRY HORSE THEN TELL SOMEONE ELSE TO HOLD HIM BACK... Look, I don't love this law but it is a good start, get rid of the source of the problem... The child molestor thing is just an example of doing your homework when hiring someone... The idea that I have to explain that is pretty telling... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TAM Report post Posted January 4, 2008 Would you mind clarifying your comment "The right way to avoid paying that is don't hire anyone, get off your a$$ and do the work yourself... Whatever you do don't provide a guy health insurance that way we the taxpayers can provide it for your cheating a$$..."? Specificly the use of the word "you and your"? I've kept this conversation very civil and don't mind if we disagree as long is there is a certain level of respect, which I think there has been up to this point. But if you are accusing me of "cheating" and breaking the law then I'm going to have a problem with that! I'll assume for now that you were not directing the comment at me but mearly speaking in general? As far as the $10 bucks and hour goes, or even minimum wage for that matter. It is not meant for anyone to earn a living for there entire life on those wages. They are there as minimums for those that are just getting started in the work force. Do you expect compaines to pay entry level positions at 36K per year just so everyone can drive a new car and not have to have a room mate? I started off at minimum wage when it was $2.35 an hour and I learned real quick that if I wanted to have nice things and achieve my goals in life I would have to work hard to move my way up. If a person doesn't like minimum wage then work hard and get promoted. Don't cry to the government to raise minimum wage! (but that's a whole new arguement right there). "But, Like you said $10 an hour and no benefits is a great deal thats why legal employees are beating down the door to get those jobs... " Believe me there are NOT legal workers beating down the doors to get these jobs!!! That's half the problem right there. If the illegals aren't allowed to do the work then who else is going to step up and do it in there place? "Look, I don't love this law but it is a good start, get rid of the source of the problem... " I think that this comment is probably the KEY to our disagreement. I believe the "starting" point should be with the Federal and State Governments stepping up the fight through tougher dialouge and possible sanctions directly with the Mexican Government, securing our boarders, and getting serious about our local police forces enforcing immigration laws. It also wouldn't hurt if we cracked down on the fake Id issue either. To me that is where we need to start! I am furious that our government has turned there backs on the problem for 20+ years and now that it is out of control they want to point there fingers at the employers and tell them they need to fix it or be shut down! To me that is just wrong! I believe if the Governments did there jobs better we would not need this "new law" in the first place. JMO Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnFriddle Report post Posted January 4, 2008 The you and your part was not directed at you... It was easier to get my point accross that way, I'm not in anyway accussing anyone of anything... Your point about entry level wages is a good one but, thats not what we are talking about here... There is no such thing as a future for most of these employees, they are hired by companies that have zero interest paying them more than what they were hired at or just barely more than that... Most only get whatever the undocumented worker market dictates... I think thats why we have some of the problems we have concerning illegals, if there were a future in these jobs there might be some legal workers interested in them... As far as the government raising the minimum wage, the market dictates what you pay employees anyway, minimum wage has been lower than most starting wages for years anyway... Minimum wage seems to be the only issue that the politicians aren't afraid to tackle, because it doesn't effect anything for the most part... "Believe me there are NOT legal workers beating down the doors to get these jobs!!! That's half the problem right there. If the illegals aren't allowed to do the work then who else is going to step up and do it in there place?" You raise your compensation high enough to attract legal help!!! Like employers have been doing since time began... Unfortunatly not everyone is playing by the rules, so nobody can... I think, no matter what, the best way to deal with any problem is to attack the source... I think the government certainly needs to take a more active role in this problem... But, that is unlikley, democrats are to busy pandering to minorities, and republicans are busy pandering to the employers of illegals... I don't think this law is going to make much of a difference anyway, the economy here is going to contiually get worse here for a while and not many will be needing new employees anyway... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
25-06 Report post Posted January 5, 2008 All this talk about work, this is what works for me Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TAM Report post Posted January 5, 2008 I like that map!!! The truth is that most citizens would probably be a little more understanding of them if they came here and were proud to be Americans. But instead they come here and fly there flag, sport there colors, speak there language, and send our money back to Mexico! They don't want to be Americans, they want to turn America into Mexico. John - "There is no such thing as a future for most of these employees". I see your point here and disagree to a point. Just like any group or nationality there are under achievers and over achievers. You can't lump them all into one group and say they won't ever work there way up. Some will some won't. I've seen some that become very succussful and I've seen many that are content with $10 an hour. I can't speak for every industry, but I do know that the construction industry will pay them or anyone else top dollar for skilled labor that can work hard. I believe if they work hard to learn there skill that most will eventually earn a livable wage. But you are right to the degree that they are already behind the eight ball when they get here and they have a tough road ahead of them. "You raise your compensation high enough to attract legal help!!!" So in other words if a "legal" brick layer could make 50K per year instead of an "illegal" making 18K per year then perhaps more people would choose to be brick layers when they grow up? That's a valid point. The problem I see is that's a good idea for a long term fix to the problem, but it doesn't come without some serious short term problems for the economy. There would no doubt be a major shortage of labor until enough legal workers could learn the trades and replace the illegals. For the short term there would have to be some sort of guest worker program to fill the labor shortage, or pay the economic consequences. It's a scary thought what that could do to a volitile economy like we have today. I believe that this new law will get washed out with more politics, law suits, loop holes, and red tape before it ever has a chance to make an effect on anything anyway. Thank you for the stimulating conversation on a touchy subject! I think I'm going to bow out of this one for awhile. This website is supposed to be a place where I can come and relax and think about hunting, not debate politics. I've got enough issues in real life to keep me wound up and I don't want this to become another one of them. Speaking of Mexico........ I almost forgot! I'm heading down a week from today to kill a monster Mexican coues deer. Don't worry he'll have all the proper paper work when I bring him back! Take care! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
az4life Report post Posted January 5, 2008 Good luck on your search for a monster coues in mexico. That will be the best thing to come out of that country IMHO It will be legal, won't cost US taxpayers anything and won't try to repatriate the US into Replublico del Norte/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnFriddle Report post Posted January 5, 2008 Thanks TAM good luck... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
