It's about time!

[az4life]

Jet, Tam

Good arguments and points made.

Not surprisingly, I agree with a lot of what you both wrote. One problem that we all see is, the feds are not doing something that should be done. Protecting our borders. If the government won't take on the problem, I believe it is every citizen's responsibility to protect the borders in any way they legally can. As I am not a business owner, the impact from this new law on me is negligible. I won't hire illegals for day labor either so I am doing my part.

 

An honorable business owner has the moral responsibility to not hire illegals, yet some do. It may not be right to penalize all business owners for an honest mistake but those that blatantly ignore the law should be severely penalized. How do we determine which is which though? That said, I realize I am advocating additional laws to force businesses to do what the government won't. That is against my belief as well. I have a deep problem with government regulation and interferrence in private sector. Every time a new mandate is created it infringes on the American Freedoms. Hundreds of arguments and opinions on this topic.

 

As Americans, we might be forgetting that we all have a responsibility for our own welfare and to protect our country. I do not (and I am sure you do not) wait for government to put food on my table so why should I wait for them to do the right thing about illegals.

 

IMO The slippery slope is on the government regulation not about the the clear and present danger, Illegal Immigration.

We have collectively ignored the problem along with the government so now we need to come up with a solution that will not suit everyone.

The Greater Good, should figure heavily in any eventual "answer".

 

You guys and your words have given me some cause to think, and empathize with honest business owners. I still believe, No jobs, no reason to come here illegally!

[JohnFriddle]

Don't you guys know it's illegal to hire an undocumented workers now??? This is nothing new, their just putting some accountability where it belongs... How can anyone say that they shouldn't have to know who works for them??? IT IS CHEATING, AND IT'S BREAKING THE LAW!!! I love how everyone agrees something needs to be done, but they want someone else to do it... If people weren't hiring illegals there wouldn't be any here... DUH

[TAM]

JohnF, tell me how its cheating when you hire a person with a Social Security card and a Photo Id and come to find out they are still Illegal?

 

America doesn't realize that many/most of them have fake paperwork. It only costs them $150 to buy fake documents. It's not the business owners responsibility to determine if a federal document is real or fake. That's clearly one of the many police orginazations jobs. FBI perhaps?

 

It seems to me that you haven't ever owned an Arizona business or dealt with hiring people. That's not meant to be a slam either. Many business owners are currently, and have been playing by the rules for years. They get SS #'s and photo Id's for all there employees. They pay there workers honest wages and in general are on the up and up. The problem with this senario is that they have been following the law by requesting paperwork and Id's but you say they are "cheating" and "breaking the law". How is that cheating?

[KGAINES]

The only way you would know that is if more than one of your employees has the same social, other than that the gov't. should not be able to penalize you. You would open yourself up for lawsuits if you did not hire someone because they couldn't speak english, not saying its right, that is just the way it is, the buisiness owners are kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place. You know, but you don't know and you get no support from the feds or the state for that matter, this is just the case of passing the responsibility down to someone who has no political gain. If this was going to affect political officials it would never happen this way, there needs to be accountability on higher levels, neither democrats nor republicans really want tot take a real issue with this because it affacts them both in different ways and they don't want it fixed.

[TAM]

"You know, but you don't know..." Thank you Keith

 

Most Americans are missing that point right there!

[daryl_s]

Remember the deal a few years ago where they had a crackdown in the MVD and busted a ring of about 25 people???? They were using the real machine to make real state ID's and DL's for I think it was $600 a piece. I saw a SS card one time that I knew was fake and it was really hard to tell. You can get whatever you want for the right price.

[DesertBull]

Many businesses WANT them to have fake papers so that they can throw up their hands and say "It's not our fault", but they knew good and well they were not legal when they hired them.

 

If they are caught with fake papers, they should be prosecuted for that crime as well.

[TAM]

I agree with Desertbull that many business want them to have fake ID's so they can plead ignorance. In that case both the business and worker should be busted. However, both the State and Federal Government should be doing everything they can to secure our borders and enforce the current immigration laws. I believe if they were doing there part there would be very little need for fake papers in the first place.

[az4life]

When government neglects it's responsibility, Shouldn't we remember it is our responsibility to take action.

Some words from history...

 

...Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government...

...But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security...

[JohnFriddle]

JohnF, tell me how its cheating when you hire a person with a Social Security card and a Photo Id and come to find out they are still Illegal?

Easy you fire them!!! There is nothing you can do about fake documents but if, or when you find they are fake you act!!!

 

 

America doesn't realize that many/most of them have fake paperwork. It only costs them $150 to buy fake documents. It's not the business owners responsibility to determine if a federal document is real or fake. That's clearly one of the many police orginazations jobs. FBI perhaps?

 

Now that the new law is in effect, all businesses in AZ will need to sign up with this e-verify deal, a federal program, and e-verify will do the background check...

 

 

It seems to me that you haven't ever owned an Arizona business or dealt with hiring people. That's not meant to be a slam either. Many business owners are currently, and have been playing by the rules for years. They get SS #'s and photo Id's for all there employees. They pay there workers honest wages and in general are on the up and up. The problem with this senario is that they have been following the law by requesting paperwork and Id's but you say they are "cheating" and "breaking the law". How is that cheating?

 

I've never owned a business but I have been involved with hiring poeple. I have not ever worked for a company that wasn't offering a livable wage so I have never been around the hiring of illegals... I beleive it's true that there are many businesses that do the right thing, but, there are just as many that do not!!! I'm not sure you meant what you wrote when you wrote "They get SS #'s and photo Id's for all there employees. " I'm sure you meant they get SS#s and ID's from them... Because if you meant for thats agaist the law... The law states KNOWINGLY, I know, I know, "What could I do he had a SS# and ID, hint, hint, wink, wink." Well now you can enjoy life without a business licence... I'm sorry but that is breaking the law, that is cheating... Pay a livable wage with benifits, and you won't have to worry about it...

[TAM]

John, yes I meant "From" them. Thank you for the clarification.

 

There's no "hint, hint, wink, wink" about it. The employers AREN'T and SHOULDN"T have to police the issue. The law also says if they provide you with documentation and you don't hire them because you suspect they are illegal, then you can open yourself up to a lawsuit for discrimination.

 

You also state that "I have not ever worked for a company that wasn't offering a livable wage so I have never been around the hiring of illegals" You are jumping to a HUGE CONCLUSION that EVERYONE that hires an illegal pays a lower wage. THAT IS COMPLETLEY FALSE!!! I'd be willing to wadger that most are paid at or above state and federal minimum wage laws. You are forgetting, or denying, that illegals are hired for two reasons. The first is cheap labor and the second is because there aren't enough legal citizens to meet current labor demands. Not every company with illegals is looking for cheap labor, in fact many will pay top dollar for good help.

 

For what it's worth, try going out and see how much the illegals on the corner charge for day labor. You'll be hard pressed to get anyone for less than $10 bucks an hour. Last I checked that is nearly double minimum wage!

 

By the way the new AZ law does not make it manditory to sign up with e-verify. It is a voluntary Federal program. Many people are making it out to be manditory but it is mearly a suggestion.

[JohnFriddle]

So $10 an hour and no benefits is a livable wage??? I guess it is OK if your living in a studio apt with seven other guys... I can't beleive you are suggesting that a business doesn't have the responsibility to make sure thier employees are legal... So by that rational if a school hires a child molester they can just shrug their shoulders and say "It's the governments fault..." If your going to pay someone to represent you shouldn't you make sure they legally can? And yes they do need to use a service like e-verify, for all new hires, and they probably should verify existing employees as well...

[TAM]

Who are you to say that $10 an hour is not a liveable wage? I'm sure some people have different standards than you do? Other than workers comp, many citizens don't get any benefits, do you have any idea how much it costs for companies to provide health insurance? I highly doubt you have never worked for a company that pays minimum wage. That is how people get there start in the work force is by getting paid minimum wage and working there way up!

 

You're missing my point! I've never said that businesses don't have the responsibility to make sure their employees are legal. I've simply stood by my belief that after a business is presented with a social security card, picture ID, and fills out an I-9 form the business owner has done his part. If the government is worried beyond that they should do a better job securing our borders and cracking down on those that are manufacturing and using falsified documents.

 

Ill say it again with emphasis. BUSINESS OWNERS SHOULD NOT BE RESPONSIBLE FOR POLICING THE PROBLEM WITH ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION!

 

I want to see the Government(s) do more on there end before they throw it back in the lap of the public to make up for a problem they have ignored for decades!

 

You are wrong about e-verify. It has been stated by the Governor and the Arizona Attorney General that it will remain a voluntary program.

 

Not sure what child molestors has to do with any of this? Not even close to the same.

[Outdoor Writer]

By the way the new AZ law does not make it manditory to sign up with e-verify. It is a voluntary Federal program. Many people are making it out to be manditory but it is mearly a suggestion.

 

Point of clarification. -TONY

 

The law requires employers to sign onto the Basic Pilot program, recently renamed “E-Verify,” a voluntary, experimental program that has gradually expanded to cover approximately 17,000 employers nationwide. “The Basic Pilot has been plagued with problems, including failing to identify legally authorized workers due to its reliance on the error-ridden databases of the Social Security Administration and the Department of Homeland Security, and the DHS’s lack of resources to monitor employer compliance with the rules of the program,” said Linton Joaquin, Executive Director of NILC, also representing the plaintiffs in the case. “The Arizona law requires 130,000 to 150,000 Arizona employers to join this flawed program, and this is truly a recipe for disaster and will cause grievous harm to legally authorized workers.”

****

 

The lawsuit alleges that the new law conflicts with federal immigration law and the U.S. Constitution. The "Legal Arizona Workers Act" requires that employers verify the employment eligibility of an employee through a flawed federal verification database (the Basic Pilot Program) that was intended by Congress to be voluntary and imposes sanctions beyond what the federal government allows.

 

"Under federal law, participation in the Basic Pilot Program is voluntary. By requiring Arizona employers to use this program, the Legal Arizona Workers Act runs afoul of the Constitution and will subject all Arizona employees regardless of legal status - Latinos in particular - to potential discrimination based on their race, ethnicity, or national origin," said Kristina Campbell, Acting Los Angeles Regional Counsel and lead MALDEF attorney on the case.

***

The measure also requires employers to use an online federal database, dubbed "E-Verify," to check the employment eligibility of new hires in the border state, which is home to an estimated 500,000 illegal immigrants.

***

The Legal Arizona Workers Act, now known as the Employer Sanctions Law, was passed by the Legislature in June and was signed into law in July by Gov. Janet Napolitano. The law requires employers to check the validity of new hires' identities against a federal database that taps into information maintained by the Social Security Administration and the federal Department of Homeland Security.

***

Attorney David Selden said if Wake balks, it will have major financial implications for the businesses he represents.

 

He noted that part of the law requires all firms to sign up with the E-Verify program. That means having the necessary computer equipment and training employees to use it. Selden said that could run $150 million -- $1,000 for each of the 150,000 Arizona businesses affected -- money he said would be wasted if he eventually gets a court to conclude the statute is unconstitutional.

 

"It's not in anybody's interest to have the law go into effect before there's a ruling," he said.

***

[.270]

ya know what the worst thing about this whole deal is? folks saying it's gonna be a drag on the economy if they hafta go home. folks that want cheap labor. they want em up here, but they don't want em to make decent money, so the price of things doesn't go up. ain't that sorta contrary to the "American" way? ain't folks supposed to come here and be better off? the same arguement by the slave holders and plantation owners got us in the civil war. "oh lawdy lawdy, what will we do if we can't own people and make em work cheap? that cotton can't pick itself." if folks are gonna live here, they need to become citizens and become the best they can be, not just a little better than they were where they came from. i'm all for enforcing the borders and shipping every illegal outta here and making businesses and private folks all accountable for knowingly hiring illegal help. then loosen up the requirements a little and let folks immigrate legally and become Americans and live the dream. and i'm 100% against making a new class of folks that are just here to keep lawn mowing and house construction and cafe prices down. treating folks that way is no better than slavery. it's called a cast society, like they have in india or south africa. whatever level you're born in is where you stay. it ain't right. Lark.