An Open Dialog on G & F Laws

[trphyhntr]

 

No one is reading these novels

Obviously you are and then you make your typical stupid comments. Then you backpedal again with your typical stupid crawfish remarks. If you cant contribute to the thread then dont post. What a troll.

Calm down. I said I don't think the laws need to be changed. And ffs I didn't know so many people read these redundant walls of text

[Flatlander]

Flatlander - the issue is not that they wrote a ticket for a violation. I fully expected that. I fully expected to pay a fine and perhaps some community service. What I did not expect was when you plead guilty or no contest, it opens up the door to a civil action where G & F (not a civil court) can decide to fine and revoke or suspend your hunting privileges for up to five years. That is far from being a simple matter and it seems a little extreme to me for what I did. After my initial encounter with G & F, I was not inclined to put any further trust and faith in them to find some middle ground or to play fair. Enacting a new law could be one way of ensuring that certain self-reported violations are treated differently. I am trying to complete my Arizona Big Ten. At my age, having my hunting privileges suspended for even one year would completely knock me out of any chance for drawing a big horn tag. I would lose the annual point, plus lose my loyalty point. Losing those two points alone would mathematically put me out of the running until I am 75. I just couldn't risk it. By the way, my attorney made no recommendation. He laid out all the courses of action, along with everything that could go wrong or right with each one. Then he let me make the call. I was simply unwilling to give G & F another shot at me, my wallet or my future hunting. Additionally, I am a financial professional that holds several licenses. I make my livelihood with them. Having a public criminal record could impact my ability to renew them and therefore, was simply not an option - regardless of the violation. The diversion program made the violation disappear. Perhaps you see it differently in part because your circumstances are not the same as mine?

No. You committed a crime, and chose to confess to that to ease your conscience, set an example to the new hunter, and avoid being detected by some other means.

 

The merit of fessing up to doing something wrong, is that you take responsibility and accept your consequences. The way I explain this to youth I work with or my own kids is that you get to make your own choices, but you dont get to pick the consequences. But thats exactly what you wanted, you wanted to set the terms. You wanted to feel better about what you did but not have a serious consequence. You dont get to decide that. The merit of owning up to a mistake is accepting the associated consequences. So if potentially losing some

Bonus points or having some obscure traffic level citation was too much for you to risk, then dont fess up. Kick that bird in the brush and live with the fact that you poached something.

 

All in all it sounds to me like the law was very fair to you allowing you an option that removed the risks you viewed as too great while also making the consequence severe enough that I bet you wont shoot another animal without checking for blood again.

 

Seems like the system worked out alright for you.

 

As far as letting AZGFD get another shot at you I really dont know what your beef with them is. They wrote you a ticket for shooting an extra bird. What did you want them to do roast it and serve it to you for thanksgiving?

[Tropicalmulch]

No need to change laws ....we have enough of them as it is. That's my opinion on what your real question is. However do I think game and fish can or should excercise leniency on a self reporter? Depending on the circumstances, yes I think they should. In your circumstance I think they should based on the fact that you self reported. But it sounds to me like you took that opportunity away from them by volunteering for the option you went with....maybe I'm misunderstanding how all that worked out...but seems to me game and fish cited a violation and because of possible outcomes you chose the Avenue you chose(in fear of loosing your hunting license and opportunity to draw a sheep tag) when maybe they woulda just slapped you on the wrist.

[Coues poacher]

 

No one is reading these novels

Obviously you are and then you make your typical stupid comments. Then you backpedal again with your typical stupid crawfish remarks. If you cant contribute to the thread then dont post. What a troll.

Someone obviously needs to get laid.

[300RUM]

To self report or not? If you do not the list of charges potentially increases. Also, anyone other than the shooter who was present and does not report may be considered an accessory and charged. You must also consider you are being watched and someone else will do the reporting for you. If you do self report you are taking chances on what type of WM will arrive. In my experience they vary from some of the nicest people you could hope to meet to those with the personality of a coiled rattlesnake. The WM may chooses to throw the book at you but you still get your chance in front of a judge. I was recently out with a disabled veteran who shot the wrong animal. The responding WM was a great guy who based on the total circumtances of the event chose to handle it as an educational experience, just like Rossislider described above. Yes, forms were filled out and signed and the event documented but a citation was not issued. Poor and homeless near Show Low got some extra protein in their diet. Bottom line, if you screw up hunting you have just placed yourself at a fork in the road of life. Either one you take has the potential to be unpleasant.

[azsugarbear]

Flatlander- not sure what else to say here. I committed a crime. I chose to confess because I felt it was the right thing to do - not to ease my conscience. Never once did I try to set the terms. Anyone who has been in the criminal justice system knows that the accused never sets any terms. I took my full punishment. This is not about me. I am through it and out the other side. So why not ease up on the whole 'man up' routine? Been there and done that.

 

I am trying to look to the future here and make others aware of what I went through, so that they can make an informed decision. I am asking others how they feel about the laws, not what they think of me and my choices.

 

It wasn't just a simple fine here. Nobody told me about the diversion program. Nobody gives you any help when the wheels of the criminal court system begin to grind. I had to pay $2,500 to an attorney to learn of the program. This thread gives me the opportunity to share this information with others for free so they don't end up paying $2,500 for an unintentional poaching mistake.

 

Perhaps some day a CWT reader will find himself looking down at a son or granddaughter who has done something similar. Being in full possession of the pertinent facts, or knowing there is a new law on the books may make his advice to his family member a little easier. I would never try and tell another man what to do. I do know that given the current laws on the books, I would have a difficult time telling a son or granddaughter to turn himself in. In the words of my attorney, "Being honest and fair only works when the playing field is level. In your case, all the cards belong to the house". This thread was meant to discuss the merits of a law like many other states have, where self-reported game violations are treated differently.

[azsugarbear]

300RUM - great post and analysis. You are spot on with the fork in the road. I am just wondering if it doesn't make sense to build a third road to make it easier for those who screw up and want to do the right thing without coughing up big dollars for legal fees in additional to any mandated fine.

[muledeerarea33?]

 

 

 

No one is reading these novels

You have over 7000 posts.

What does that have to do with OPs walls of text

Ive been skimming them to get the jist.

[Flatlander]

Add a Poll to the thread and get everyone's opinions. It seems most want to critique the situation rather than give an opinion on your original question. As I stated early in this thread, I would be good with a new law to have different penalties for self reporting, but the law would need to have very detailed language so that it is not abused by flagrant poachers.

I hope flatlander gets pulled over for going 1 mph over the speed limit and they charge him with felony speeding. I mean, he was speeding.

What did I do to you? I already fessed up to my mistake

and took my licks.

[Delw]

Flatlander - the issue is not that they wrote a ticket for a violation. I fully expected that. I fully expected to pay a fine and perhaps some community service. What I did not expect was when you plead guilty or no contest, it opens up the door to a civil action where G & F (not a civil court) can decide to fine and revoke or suspend your hunting privileges for up to five years. That is far from being a simple matter and it seems a little extreme to me for what I did. After my initial encounter with G & F, I was not inclined to put any further trust and faith in them to find some middle ground or to play fair. Enacting a new law could be one way of ensuring that certain self-reported violations are treated differently. I am trying to complete my Arizona Big Ten. At my age, having my hunting privileges suspended for even one year would completely knock me out of any chance for drawing a big horn tag. I would lose the annual point, plus lose my loyalty point. Losing those two points alone would mathematically put me out of the running until I am 75. I just couldn't risk it. By the way, my attorney made no recommendation. He laid out all the courses of action, along with everything that could go wrong or right with each one. Then he let me make the call. I was simply unwilling to give G & F another shot at me, my wallet or my future hunting. Additionally, I am a financial professional that holds several licenses. I make my livelihood with them. Having a public criminal record could impact my ability to renew them and therefore, was simply not an option - regardless of the violation. The diversion program made the violation disappear. Perhaps you see it differently in part because your circumstances are not the same as mine?

 

Some comments in this thread have been along the lines that poaching is poaching. Period. Black and white. I get it. That is the way the law currently reads. One of my questions is: Should it? With most other criminal violations, the law clearly looks to the original intent. That is why, when a life is taken, there are several different violations that a person can be charged with from first degree murder on down to negligent homicide. Stealing a candy bar from a store is no different than stealing millions from the elderly through fraud. It's all stealing, right? My point is, the law has always been willing to look at the intent of the charged individual as well as the magnitude and severity of the crime itself. Did he/she intend for this to happen? But the legal term "criminal intent" has oddly been left out of the laws drawn up for G & F.

 

Please understand - I'm not calling anybody out here. This is the kind of open discussion I was looking for.

Like I said in the beginning, you being honest about it in your 1st post was commendable, you should have stopped posting. thats why I asked in my 1st posts more bout the hunting part and what happened.but you wanted to just talk about how unfair the law was.people usually start posts like that cause they know they screwed up want people to get on there side for what ever reason until the real truth comes out you know the little insedential things.

the more you posted the more I get the feeling that the feeling that you figured you were going to be just slapped on the wrist and everything would be back to normal.

Then you posted the above thats in bold. so you break the laws by not paying attention to what your doing and think its unfair that you got into trouble and might loose your points for a bighorn sheep permit.

 

 

Flat lander is spot on in his last 2 posts.

[Delw]

 

 

No one is reading these novels

Obviously you are and then you make your typical stupid comments. Then you backpedal again with your typical stupid crawfish remarks. If you cant contribute to the thread then dont post. What a troll.

Calm down. I said I don't think the laws need to be changed. And ffs I didn't know so many people read these redundant walls of text

 

come on DUDE you have to read them especially after the main post is put up, thats where you find out all the good shoot because people just cant shut up. its fun and makes for a saturday at work entertaining.

[Flatlander]

Heaven help us, Delw and I agree on something. I guess it was a bit cold today.

[hoghntr]

Azsugarbear this is a bummer that this happened. I fully understand how your feeling. I commend you for self reporting! Many dig ditches or toss animals in brush. I'm sorry you have had to go thru this and I'm betting next time you pull the trigger your gonna be slightly different man and hunter with different guidlines in head. I just hope this doesn't kill the sport for you. Good luck with it all and Happy Hunting!

[lonne]

^ cool story but they cant write you a ticket for not having a license if you have one. They can only write you for failure to have it on you. Non criminal so its like a parking ticket. Pay it an move on.

Yes, they wrote him a ticket for failure to have it on him. And no, they did not treat it like a parking ticket.

[Delw]

Heaven help us, Delw and I agree on something. I guess it was a bit cold today.

dont worry its suppose to warm up this week things week.