Why We Don't Use Other People's Loads To Start

[lancetkenyon]

I have a buddy who had a custom rifle built in 28 Nosler. Intended use is LR elk and deer, using the 195 Berger Elite Hunter. Basically a clone of a mutual friend's rifle, that shoots the same bullet into the mid .2s @ 3150fps. Built by the same gunsmith, using almost identical components.

 

Well, the normal load for this combo/reamer is:

Nosler brass

CCI BR-2 primers

RL33 powder (85.0 starting to 89.0gr. max)

195 Berger Elite Hunter bullets

 

There are reasons why we start low and work up. Just because a load is safe in other rifles, does not mean it is safe in every rifle. Here is a good lesson in reloading safety, and how to look for signs of pressure. And why we do not start high to try and automatically wring every bit of speed we can out of the rifle.

 

He was having issues that we could not verify. High velocities, poor accuracy, etc.

 

After trying several charge weights in the normal load range towards the high side, and not having any luck, my buddy gave me a call to see if I had any suggestions. We talked several times over the phone, and with his sporadic results, he threw in the towel and called me again.

 

He had 100 pieces of new Nosler brass, and had used 50 of the original 100 in his development attempts. With a total of 98 rounds fired, and nothing to show from it.

 

I got the components from him, and he had about 20 pieces of brass that were twice fired that he said the primers just fell out. Upon examination, it was apparent to me there was severe over pressure issues. Case head swipes & ejector marks were present. Velocities were way above where they should have been as well. 3200-3250 for charge weights in the 86.0-88.0gr range. Unsure if it was a charge weight issue, chronograph inconsistency/inaccuracy, or something else, we decided to go back to the drawing board.

 

Here are a few of the case heads.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So I decided to just start from scratch. We cleaned the rifle to get it back to a clean bore. 1st patch, with Shooter's Choice MC#7, showed a lot of copper fouling.

 

 

I use Sweet's 7.62 as a copper solvent. This is strong stuff, and works very quickly. Usually 2 or 3 rounds with a 10 minute soak is all it takes to remove all copper fouling. This rifle took 13 rounds with 10 minute soaks to remove all the copper.

 

 

#12 pass

 

 

 

There were about 20 pieces set aside that were resized, cleaned, and primed, marked "ready to load". Since I was starting from scratch. I decided to pull apart the loaded rounds, resize all the brass, tumble, trim, anneal and prime. I found this on one of the "ready to load" cases.

 

 

I did not get a photo (stupid me), but under this, was a pinhole in the shoulder.

 

 

I pulled apart all of the loaded rounds. Here were my findings when I did.

Scale set to 0 (red marks are .1 & .5 gr. above and below)

Verify with a 10 gram weight (154.323 grains)

After resizing, tumbling, and re-priming, I had another 11 pieces that the primer seated with zero resistance. I could push the primer out from the inside by hand with a tiny punch. At this point, I set aside all of the fired brass and am starting with virgin brass.

 

So I sized, tumbled, and annealed the 50 pieces of virgin brass.

 

 

I started at 84.0 grains of RL33. Should be plenty low for this reamer.....right?

 

 

Loaded up 10 of the 84.0gr. rounds, and a ladder test starting at 84.0 up to 89.0gr to go out and shoot at 400.

 

 

So, range day! My favorite.

 

 

1st two rounds.....no signs of pressure.......

 

 

Because I had two misfires....

 

 

I took one primed but unload case, and popped one off. Hmmm....

 

So, I had a fairly good idea what velocity should be with the 84.0gr charge weight round , I figured 3000fps with the data I have collected with a few other 28 Noslers.....

 

First shot @ 432 yards hit about 1" low of POA. Not too shabby. But.......

 

 

 

 

3141fps with an 84.0gr charge weight??? Maybe the clean barrel.....2nd shot with the 84.0 charge weight.

 

 

 

 

Way, WAY faster than it should be.

 

 

So I shot a total of 6 rounds of the 84.0 to see if it continued. Nothing outrageous for pressure, but I guess I am not shooting the ladder test today....

 

 

 

 

 

So, back to the drawing board....again. Glad Is started a full grain lower than recommended.

 

Virgin brass

 

 

Fired case (from the 84.0 charge weight)

 

 

So I went down 4 full grains more to start over. Ladder test is from 80.0 to 89.0 now. I am sure I will be pulling apart the top row, but kept it just in case.

 

 

After shooting, and talking with the gunsmith, I am thinking the bore is a tight one, and is building pressure much sooner. He said he has seen this in one other rifle out of 25+ builds. I will update this thread as the development progresses.

[Mike S]

Sounds like tight bore assuming the same reamer was used for both chambers, although I would have thought he would have noticed that when verifying the reamer pilot size. The first rifle isn't 5r rifling by chance?

[muledeerarea33?]

Sounds familiar. You and I talked about loads for the 6.5-06ai and I started a grain lower than you and another guy. I got pressure signs .5 higher and blew primers out at .6 grains higher than I started (.4 grains lower than your load) when I backed off it shot in the .2s-.3s. Just goes to show that the same barrel and gun can be different. Good post lance!

[ofdscooby]

What brand barrel? I would spin that barrel off and send it in and have them scope it there may have been a defect or the guy lapping it didnt get his coffee that day sounds like it was a little too tight.

[300RUM]

Years back I had a tool holder come loose on the lathe on one of the final passes while cutting the thread on new barrel for a 700 in .308. It may have been safe to use but I was not taking chances and bought another barrel that happened to be a different brand than the first. As I was fitting it to the 700 it occurred to me that my L1-A1 had a 1.000 - 16 thread vs 1.062 - 16 for the 700. Why not? I pulled the military barrel out of the L1-A1, took some measurements then put the "messed up" barrel back in the lathe. I cut the thread deeper and it cleaned up real nice so I did the rest of the necessary machining and installed it in the L1-A1. I loaded a series of rounds with gradually increasing charges using several powders and headed to the range. The 700 experienced pressure problems long before the maximum charge was reached. The L1-A1, a gas operated semi-auto, happily digested all the loads, up to max, with no pressure problems. It seemed a little backwards. The only explanation I could come up with was that the 700 had a much tighter bore.

[Zeke-BE]

Wow crazy. Great write up Lance. Has anyone seen a barrel slightly to loose instead of to tight? Stupid question I know

[300RUM]

Wow crazy. Great write up Lance. Has anyone seen a barrel slightly to loose instead of to tight? Stupid question I know

Ran into a guy once who was having accuracy problems with reloads for his .303 Enfield. He was using .308 bullets. The Enfield barrels run in the .311 to .314 range. Does that count?

[Titanium700]

Yup.

 

Had a friend that wanted me to help him sight in his Sav 99 in 22/250

Well we got started and that stupid thing wouldnt hit the broadside of a barn at 25 yds (we went to that from 100) so I grabbed the rifle to inspect the usual suspects when I noticed it said 250 Sav on the barrel.

I showed it to my friend when he saw it he was shocked.

Lol.

No wonder.......

[el diablo]

Great info as usual as well as a reminder as to why I dont reload. Always wanted to get into it but too dam complicated for me.

[IA Born]

Great info as usual as well as a reminder as to why I dont reload. Always wanted to get into it but too dam complicated for me.

 

That's why we have Lance on the site!

[300RUM]

Yup.

 

Had a friend that wanted me to help him sight in his Sav 99 in 22/250

Well we got started and that stupid thing wouldnt hit the broadside of a barn at 25 yds (we went to that from 100) so I grabbed the rifle to inspect the usual suspects when I noticed it said 250 Sav on the barrel.

I showed it to my friend when he saw it he was shocked.

Lol.

No wonder.......

A barrel slightly loose instead of to tight? Sounds like you guys were trying to be over achivers.

[Titanium700]

Lol.

We try.

[Zeke-BE]

Yup.

 

Had a friend that wanted me to help him sight in his Sav 99 in 22/250

Well we got started and that stupid thing wouldnt hit the broadside of a barn at 25 yds (we went to that from 100) so I grabbed the rifle to inspect the usual suspects when I noticed it said 250 Sav on the barrel.

I showed it to my friend when he saw it he was shocked.

Lol.

No wonder.......

 

ohh thats funny I can't stop laughing!! Besides that, glad nothing bad came of it

[Titanium700]

Yeah. We got her back on track with the correct ammo.

Didnt harm the rifle one bit but he now has some 250 Sav brass with a 22/250 headstamp.

Hehe.

[Red Sparky]

Too loose--Shooting sabots in my muzzle loader. Picked up some .44 cast lead bullets to save on cost. Sabots were for .4295-.430 bullets and the cast were for cowboy action shooting ----.427. Needless to say they were not accurate at all.

 

The other experience I had was reloading .38 wadcutters for target practice. I only had one reloading manual and was reloading Hercules Unique powder. Started in the middle of what the book said and loaded about 100 rounds. My friends dad, who had several reloading manuals, told me the middle load was way too hot for a .38 special. Needless to say it was a good thing I was shooting them out of a .357 magnum and not a .38 special. So if at all possible check at least 3 reloading manuals for powder charges.