Lions and mule deer /Western Hunter magazine

[dustyb0]

Great writeup by Steve Smith.This common sense lion hunter tells it like it is.

[cjw2222]

I was actually going to post about this as well. An amazing writeup that really puts things in persepective.

[jonscaife]

just read the article last night. lions do alot more damage to the deer population than i thought. what really stuck out to me though is the differance between a lion where there are few coyotes and a lion where there are an abundance of coyotes. it said something like an average lion will make about one kill every week but when a group of coyotes comes in after the kill it forces the lion to make another kill, so it ups that average from one a week to one and a half or three every two weeks. this concerns me as a mule deer hunter. something needs to be done. but what? anyway its a great article that anyone who hunt any deer in this state needs to read.

[m gardner]

Lions take alot of deer off the winter range or seem to just because the damage is concentrated to a smaller area. I saw this when I lived in Colorado. Another predator that doesn't get enough credit for it's efforts is the eagle. Since they reintroduced them the open country deer herds have taken a nosedive as well as the antelope populations. They get alot of the fawns. Here's a photo of a fresh lion kill at a seep at 10,000 feet.

Mark

[GRONG]

You know, I'm not quite sure how I feel about the article. It seems as if this article just makes more people jump on the "I hate lions, lets kill em all" bandwagon. When in fact lions eat a whole lot of javalina and skunks too. I don't hear the javalina and skunk lovers chiming in. In fact they take a handful of elk too but since the elk seem to be doing quite well nobody says anything about that.

 

In my opinion the best thing to help the muley herds in Arizona would be to stop 9/10ths of all the hunting for them for about 5 years and I bet money you all would see a HUGE jump in the amount of deer you'd all see. The G&F dept is fully to blame for the decline in the deer herds (in my opinion). Remember back in the 80's when they had 1500 permits for 19A? Thats just one unit. They still give hundreds and hundreds of permits out for units that only have a limited amount of bucks in them to begin with! You add up the amount of permits given out thru the 70s, 80s and early 90's and tell me that didn't have a devastating effect on the deer herds. This is all my opinion but it's easy to say the predators are killing our game, oh and don't forget the droubt either. All great excuses the G&F likes to use when in fact I believe they are to blame.

 

I'll get off the soapbox now........

[DesertBull]

You know, I'm not quite sure how I feel about the article. It seems as if this article just makes more people jump on the "I hate lions, lets kill em all" bandwagon. When in fact lions eat a whole lot of javalina and skunks too. I don't hear the javalina and skunk lovers chiming in. In fact they take a handful of elk too but since the elk seem to be doing quite well nobody says anything about that.

 

In my opinion the best thing to help the muley herds in Arizona would be to stop 9/10ths of all the hunting for them for about 5 years and I bet money you all would see a HUGE jump in the amount of deer you'd all see. The G&F dept is fully to blame for the decline in the deer herds (in my opinion). Remember back in the 80's when they had 1500 permits for 19A? Thats just one unit. They still give hundreds and hundreds of permits out for units that only have a limited amount of bucks in them to begin with! You add up the amount of permits given out thru the 70s, 80s and early 90's and tell me that didn't have a devastating effect on the deer herds. This is all my opinion but it's easy to say the predators are killing our game, oh and don't forget the droubt either. All great excuses the G&F likes to use when in fact I believe they are to blame.

 

I'll get off the soapbox now........

 

I don't want to kill them all, but I do want to get one of them.

[redline410]

I agree with Josh- remove hunters from an enviroment for a while and the herds will come back. That's not to say that lions don't effect the population but its a cycle. Cat comes in- herds eventually move. Cat follows- herds move again. Same as any high hunt pressure area, leave it alone for a few seasons and it'll restock.

 

dang, one more reason to hate the '80s- First it destroyed the image of Man by letting every swinging (radio edit) with a microphone and a guitar wear make-up and panty hose on stage and now the deer population is paying for poor management practices..........Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot- Over

 

BTW- J.E. that lion I was trying to get your old man to go run outta my spot died of lead poisoning a while back. So did his brother........They ate one too many gut piles I guess. If only those piles hadn't been from the cattle, the rancher may not have been so upset............

[donniedent]

You know, I'm not quite sure how I feel about the article. It seems as if this article just makes more people jump on the "I hate lions, lets kill em all" bandwagon. When in fact lions eat a whole lot of javalina and skunks too. I don't hear the javalina and skunk lovers chiming in. In fact they take a handful of elk too but since the elk seem to be doing quite well nobody says anything about that.

 

In my opinion the best thing to help the muley herds in Arizona would be to stop 9/10ths of all the hunting for them for about 5 years and I bet money you all would see a HUGE jump in the amount of deer you'd all see. The G&F dept is fully to blame for the decline in the deer herds (in my opinion). Remember back in the 80's when they had 1500 permits for 19A? Thats just one unit. They still give hundreds and hundreds of permits out for units that only have a limited amount of bucks in them to begin with! You add up the amount of permits given out thru the 70s, 80s and early 90's and tell me that didn't have a devastating effect on the deer herds. This is all my opinion but it's easy to say the predators are killing our game, oh and don't forget the droubt either. All great excuses the G&F likes to use when in fact I believe they are to blame.

I'll get off the soapbox now........

 

 

 

I agree 150%!!!!

 

Donnie

[AZcoues_addict]

It seems as if this article just makes more people jump on the "I hate lions, lets kill em all" bandwagon.

 

I didn't get this impression at all. I got the impression that he merely states the mule deer population and in some areas the bighorn sheep decline was in fact predicatable, not only due to mountain lions, but more importantly due to poor wildlife management combined with drought and terrible forest and land management. All of these lead to a further increased decline in mule deer numbers and bighorn numbers today. If it was predictable as he states, then I assume there is some blame being implied and hint pointing at the G&F for not adjusting accordingly.

 

He says that the drought caused cattle to be pulled from the land, which seemingly increased the lion population to begin with. Then with less cattle, the lions fed more on deer, then with more dense forage due to fire suppression the lions were possibly able to get closer to their prey and be more efficient, and again a shift in lion population. Also, with hunting during prolonged periods of rut activity, the rut and fawn drop was possibly shifted later in the year when there is less forage and thus making coyotes more efficient at killing fawns. Also, the more coyotes in the area to find the lion leftovers, the more deer the lion must kill to sustain.

 

To me its a basic predator: prey scenario, which he says has shifted more toward the predator's favor with all of these factors. In most cases the predator population is the last to be affected, where the alternate prey is first, and he enforces this idea. The predators will merely shift their diet or methods and adapt, where the prey is more affected by the habitat, cover, food, and predators (hunters included). Of course the wildlife management has been (argueably) horrible on top of all of the factors he mentions. This further states that this was all predictable, just not so easily by using simple computer models and data that some agencies would like you to believe is accurate in predicting this sort of outcome and properly managing the resource! Hint!

 

In the end, I hope it was more of an eye-opener for the G&F to consider more accurate and detailed models if anything, in their wildlife management tatics. Yes, less hunting deer hunting pressure in certain areas is necessary, but he says it was all predictable, so that hopefully it can be reversed and avoided in the future. I don't think he wants you to go away thinking that by simply killing more lions or not hunting deer we will solve the issue!? At least that's some of what I got out of it between the lines.

[GRONG]

Ya I hear ya. Point well taken but all the pics of lion killed deer, to me, seemed to make a statement all in it's own. My $.02.

[Bird Dog]

Great points Josh, I have to agree. It seems we are luck to even have deer left with the current weather, grazing, and human expansion. Memeber the days of 2400 unit 8 deer permits. Now we have seemed to switch to leaning very heavy on the Whitetail populations to keep G&F in business. Lucky for us the does are so prolific and the southeastern part of the state has had a little better winters. I hope we don't over utilize the little deer!

[dogman68]

Great points Josh, I have to agree. It seems we are luck to even have deer left with the current weather, grazing, and human expansion. Memeber the days of 2400 unit 8 deer permits. Now we have seemed to switch to leaning very heavy on the Whitetail populations to keep G&F in business. Lucky for us the does are so prolific and the southeastern part of the state has had a little better winters. I hope we don't over utilize the little deer!

 

I thought the article was interesting but if you sit down, think about it, do the math, you will easily see that numbers are easily misconstrued.

Every lion study that has ever been done has debunked the "a deer a week" wives tale we all so commonly quote. It is scientific fact that the number is closer to 12-18 large mammals a year.

The one thing that is for sure though, game and fish has really messed up managing mule deer and it would serve them better and also the deer if they would just say so and quite blaming everything on drought, predation etc etc.

If you take the total elk population of arizona, add up the permits issued, factor in the kill success; don't even figure in natural mortality, you will see mathematically that there are zero elk within 4-5 years. So numbers don't always tell the story.

 

Most studies have shown that predation on cattle can be minimized and even practically eliminated with the implimentation of different grazing patterns etc. 51% of a branded calf crop-------what is that? 10? 50? 100? If the study shows that 30% of a lion's diet is cattle, that figures out to about 6-8 calves a year given the current densities of lions etc. You would need 10-20 lions in a given small area to eat 51% of a rancher's calf crop given say, an allotment of 200 head. There is no data to suggest that lions can and do exist in those numbers.

 

The article was well written and informative though. Lions do eat deer, cattle and whatever is available. They also eat a lot of skunks, rabbits, pigs, and small game to exist.

One interesting note (in my opinion) There are now quite a few bighorn sheep in 6A that live in prime lion habitat and to date, there has not been one mortality due to lions that they can document. Maybe this suggests if you have a good mix of wildlife, lions will select things besides cattle and bighorn sheep.??????? JMO Which would basically be what Steve is saying.

[Outdoor Writer]

If you take the total elk population of arizona, add up the permits issued, factor in the kill success; don't even figure in natural mortality, you will see mathematically that there are zero elk within 4-5 years. So numbers don't always tell the story.

 

Randy,

 

Okay, I'll bite; show me in real mathematical figures? -TONY

[dogman68]

If you take the total elk population of arizona, add up the permits issued, factor in the kill success; don't even figure in natural mortality, you will see mathematically that there are zero elk within 4-5 years. So numbers don't always tell the story.

 

Randy,

 

Okay, I'll bite; show me in real mathematical figures? -TONY

Tony,

I just took an arbitrary number, I think 20,000. Use any bull/cow ratio you want. Add up total bull and cow permits. Take the percentage of kill. The attrition rate will quickly outpace the replacement rate.

Is my math wrong? You do it. Several of us did and although we came out with different answers, the end result was basically the same.

[russd]

has anyone ever read desert puma? it is a huge study of lions over a ten year period in new mexico from the 80's to 90's. very informative. big toms do on a regular basis kill smaller males and full grown females with cubs and EAT them to. not the cubs per sey but the mommas. i didn't read the article stated above but hey a lions gotta eat to and you can't blame them for low deer numbers over the whole state. i think hunters who fly airplanes and kill the biggest bucks with the best genes are more damaging to the mule deer herds than a lion ever will be. one study i know of has only a 5% kill on bucks. also lions will eat anything smaller than them yotes included. i know of a female who had 13 confirmed yote kills before she got wacked.