Berger bullets on Coues...

[AZ_Native]

From what I have seen it doesn't matter what bullet you use if you hit only hide. I've seen AB, partition,Barnes etc..leave pencil holes when they miss ribs, bone. That is why I aim for the shoulder. I've had quite a bit less meat loss with Berger than with many other bullets. My results may not be the norm but I usually have them penetrate and break the shoulder, absolutely destroy the insides and stop short of damaging much of the meat on the far shoulder. Just my experience. The only time I've seen them "fail" is with a gut shot. ( not me) but not many bullets can compensate for poor shot placement. That is another reason to shoot the most accurate bullet in your rifle whatever that may be.

 

Can't argue with that point. If I recall I went between the ribs on the entry and exit. Even though it was a pencil in and out an animal won't go too far when you double lung it. Mine only went 5 yards in this case. I would rather make a perfect shot at 500 yards with an accurate bullet and track it 50 yards then waste a lot of meat. Interesting you have seen the other bullets do the same when it's only hide. Most of my animals have been arrow kills so I am learning more about the bullet dynamics these days.

[firstcoueswas80]

Weird schit happens. I hit a buck in the neck with a 180 hybrid from my 7 LRM a few years ago and there was basically no damage.

[cjl2010]

Double lung and the animal dies within 5 yards. Sounds like the bullet did its job.

 

I personally would be more worried about the reviews of the eld-x grenading on the skin with zero penetration. Also quite a fire reports of jacket separation and just a pencil through with the lead slug. I don't think you can expect 100% the same results every time. Like it's been said there are a lot more bergers out there and people generally don't comment when they work perfect, usually when they don't perform as expected is when people comment

[Tac]

6.5 creedmoor 140 Berger hunting bullet last year dropped clues deer at 560 yards made it about 10 yards in one leap and fell over had 6.5 in and 3 inch out. I got a little shoulder on the shot

 

Eld_m and a elk at 540 and she hunched up and went backwards down the hill. Got a little shoulder on that one also. Bullet blew apart and had striations throught liver

[Zeke-BE]

Zeke, interesting comments. I have not searched pencil holes for Bergers, but sound like I am not the only case. No doubt, those bullets fly like a lazer when you figure out the handload, and I can certainly attest to that. I trust their BC numbers more than any other bullet. Not sure if the thin jacket promotes variable expansion responses that people see. Mine was definitely pencil in, pencil out. However, it dropped within 5 yards. Any solid double lung is going to drop an animal within a reasonable distance.

 

Red Rabbit. Unfortunately, it was my last day to hunt. My buddy had to leave the day earlier, so I had to do all the hard work alone and didn't have a chance to take pictures of the vitals. If I recall, I only remember seeing pencil holes thru the lungs. Wish I would have taken the time to take those pictures. I can't complain about the fact the deer was 5 yards from the shot, but this thread is about the other factors obviously. I guess I am still perplexed that they advertise so heavily on the massive wound channel and exit, but I just didn't see that in this case.

 

WHT MTNMAN, that goes back to why I don't know that I want to use Bergers for hunting now. Sounds like too many pencil hole results and the other results are more like softball exits. Lots of bullets out there that keep their weight instead of exploding. Not sure what I will get now using my Bergers. I don't trust the Nosler ABLR for many reasons, but I am starting to trust the BC numbers I see from Hornady's ELD-X's. Interesting what Zeke mentioned about using the ELD-M's for hunting. I emailed Hornady and told them they are missing the boat with the 6.5CM. The 147 gr far outmatches the 143 ELD-X in performance. They need to produce that 147 in the X variation for hunting. Given Zeke's mention, maybe I should just use the -M for hunting though...

 

Zeke, I disagree with you 100% on the meat. The Coues front should meat I have had is incredible. Some of it was ground, but the steaks were every bit as tender and tasty as any other part of the animal, including the tenderloin! But, maybe I just shoot prime deer....

Meat is tasty just lot more deer fat and small muscle in the shoulder. Don't care for deer fat to gamy

[azsugarbear]

A couple years ago, this topic was discussed in a very long thread on www.longrangehuning.com. Lots of stories about Bergers penciling through. Some stories about Bergers blowing up on shoulders at close ranges under 200 yds. But many, many more stores about Bergers just doing their job. All bullets will have some fails. Berger took stories to heart and did an exhaustive test on their bullets trying to replicate the pass through results. Couln't duplicate the pencil through shot. In the end, they felt it may have been some clogged tips. They made changes to their production process and the tips seam much cleaner today than a few years back. In my opinion, no bullet performs 100% of the time. You just need to understand and compensate for any weaknesses of the bullet you are shooting.

 

I mostly shoot the Bergers because of their accuracy and higher BC's. Having said that, my favorite overall bullet that get closest to the 'Holy Grail" of bullet performance are the bonded bullets like the Accubond and the Sirocco. I just wish they had better BC's and tighter groups in my rifles.

[willhunt4coues]

Anyone that shoots Bergers should always check the hole on the bullet.

Lots of time the hole will get smashed in or plugged making the bullet not expand as fast.

For your target/practice rounds dont worry but the box of hunting rounds go through each one and make sure all the nose holes are open.

[WampusCat]

I have shot Coues, Muley, and Eastern Whitetail and been a part of even more hunts with Bergers at distance and all did their job perfectly but one .30 cal 210 gr HVLD. Too many variables to nail down the cause. The other 15 or so from 6mm through .30 cal all exited with a hole many times the entrance. My rifle got passed around culling WT does in KS with 215gr Hybrids and everyone exited with 1" hole. Repeatable enough for me to be confident in the field.

 

With some of the thinner jacketed long range type projectiles (AMAX included) you are more likely to see total projectile fragmentation at close range and not get an exit. I have watched way more exits out at distance where the bullet isnt explosively fragmenting inside the boiler room.

 

It is also possible to clean a plugged tip with a piece or wire or a small pick. I've also seen where a guy used a tiny drill bit. I inspect every round I take to the field. If nothing else it gives piece of mind.

[lancetkenyon]

Pretty much everything I shoot is a Berger. I do have some Barnes loads for when hunting up in the 12s.

 

Although I have not had any "long range" kills on game, I have had nothing but good success with the bullets so far (knock on wood).

.224" 70 Target VLD, .257" 115 HVLD, .264" 140 HVLD & 140 Hybrids, .277" 140 HVLD, .284" 168 HVLD & 180 Hybrid, .308" 210 HVLD, 215 Hybrid, and I hope to try some 230 Hybrids this year on some bull elk (we have 4 bull tags to fill). From 20 yards to 488 yards. Most dropped within 20 yards or at the shot, only one made it 75 yards, but the blood trail was excellent with a baseball sized exit wound. From coyotes to javalina to mulies to cow and bull elk. All but 2 bullets have exited. The other 2 were just under the skin on the offside after smashing through shoulders and spines. A .308" 210 HVLD through a coyote at 320ish left a softball sized exit. and at 150 yards, left a football sized exit. So they open plenty fast.

 

I have had identical results from Sierra Match Kings too. I did have a truly long range kill with them. I shot a coyote at 1327 with a .250 AI shooting a 100 SMK @ 3100fps MV. Also took javalina, deer and a cow elk with the same load. And a bull elk @ 160 yards with a .308" 175 SMK @ 3380fps. One of the fastest kills I have ever witnessed. Bullet was under the offside skin on that one too, about 1/2-3/4" wide mushroom.

[Cell4soul]

Last year was my first year trying the Berger 140 VLDH with hand loads out of my 6.5 CM. The deer I shot was right at 200 yards. The deer took 2 steps and tumbled down the hill towards me. This was a double lung shot just behind his left shoulder. The bullet was found mushroomed on the opposite side of the deer up against the skin, the bullet didn't exit the deer. I shot 2 antelope last year with this round, one at 410 yards and the other at 420 yards. Both dropped without a step taken. I didn't recover the bullets, don't remember the exit size. My 6.5 CM is at 2762 FPS.

[firstcoueswas80]

Used the 180 Hybrid last year from my 28 Nosler, MV of 3202. Killed 3 deer last year. Mine at 475, and a pair of buddies, 357 and 475. All were dead within 10 yards or sooner. One buck at 475 was 1/4ing too. Buddy was back at 780, (where we glassed him from), and he watched the body expand and ripple.

[trphyhntr]

pretty sure a .177 pellet gun could do a number on a coues.

[recurveman]

Just happen to be doing some reloading today and realized I have not brought this topic up to a forum. Last Fall I got my Coues buck with a rifle tag. It was an average size buck that I took at 310 yards. The rifle is a Remington 700 Long Range Hunter (it was a little earlier model prior to calling it that but same dang thing...). Shooting 168 Berger VLD's out of it at about 2,798 fps on handloads. The ballistics calculator puts the bullet at 2,369 fps and 2,093 ft/lbs at that distance. The rifle has pretty much been a lazer for me and the bullet hit exactly where the cross hairs were placed. (not that 300 yards is a difficult shot...) I have always heard the Berger VLD's enter a little bit, then expand violently, giving a quick kill. This bullet appeared to have literally no expansion that I could see. There was a 308 caliber hole going in and a 308 caliber hole on the exit wound. I was by myself so didn't have time to get shots of the insides and actual wound channel. Granted, the deer dropped within 5 yards of where I hit him I am just curious as to the potential "non-expansion" of the bullet. That concerns me a little about using the bullet on larger game at different distances. I'll try to post of the entry and exit wounds later, but thought some folks on here might have some experiences to share on the same topic. It was a double lung, so obviously the deer had a very limited life span after I hit it, but if it were a less than desirable shot and I don't get that wound channel, I don't want to watch an animal walk off and never recover it.

I had an experience with my 6.5 X 284 that was almost exactly the same as yours. This is my theory. The bullets are designed to go through the air like butter. That would mean that they are designed to go through meat like butter. I think it takes a more dense substance to get the bullet to start expanding and then you would do great with the bergers. I also thing if you hit the front shoulder you would be just fine. We have shot the 90 grain balistic tip out of our .243's at these deers for years and they litterally don't take steps. The just drop in their tracks. I'm going back to those bullets with this gun and be done with it. The performance I saw was really, really bad and I don't need to see that again.

 

Now on a bigger animal like elk I think you would be fine.

[CraigK]

Just saw my buddies son smoke a coues yesterday at 380yards quartering slightly. It punched right behind the shoulder and came out the front of the opposite shoulder with about a 2-1/2" exit wound. The lungs and aorta were demolished. He shoots a 6.5 x 284 with 140vld @ a little over 2800 Fps. Hard to judge bullet characteristics with this shot though because with the placement, I'm sure any bullet would have done a number, but I definitely liked the result.

All the deer I've seen killed with bergers have been great.

[lancetkenyon]

I can add a 662 yard elk kill with a 7mm 180 Hybrid. Exit was about $.25 size, but bull only went 50 yards.