Berger bullets on Coues...

[AZ_Native]

Just happen to be doing some reloading today and realized I have not brought this topic up to a forum. Last Fall I got my Coues buck with a rifle tag. It was an average size buck that I took at 310 yards. The rifle is a Remington 700 Long Range Hunter (it was a little earlier model prior to calling it that but same dang thing...). Shooting 168 Berger VLD's out of it at about 2,798 fps on handloads. The ballistics calculator puts the bullet at 2,369 fps and 2,093 ft/lbs at that distance. The rifle has pretty much been a lazer for me and the bullet hit exactly where the cross hairs were placed. (not that 300 yards is a difficult shot...) I have always heard the Berger VLD's enter a little bit, then expand violently, giving a quick kill. This bullet appeared to have literally no expansion that I could see. There was a 308 caliber hole going in and a 308 caliber hole on the exit wound. I was by myself so didn't have time to get shots of the insides and actual wound channel. Granted, the deer dropped within 5 yards of where I hit him I am just curious as to the potential "non-expansion" of the bullet. That concerns me a little about using the bullet on larger game at different distances. I'll try to post of the entry and exit wounds later, but thought some folks on here might have some experiences to share on the same topic. It was a double lung, so obviously the deer had a very limited life span after I hit it, but if it were a less than desirable shot and I don't get that wound channel, I don't want to watch an animal walk off and never recover it.

[dcshorthairs]

So I am going to watch this as well. I shot a mule deer last year with a 7mm rem mag LR 140 grain nosler accubond. It dropped him in his tracks. After shooting some of the Berger 168's, they shoot even more accurate than the nosler. I too am wondering what the impacts will be like at 100, 200, 300 and 400. I have heard that even though these are made for 400+, they will still expand upon impact at closer ranges. Hoping to see some comments on this as well.

[HuntHarder]

I have taken 2 coues with berger 185 VLD's. One was 540 yards and the other was 900 yards. My muzzle velocity is 2850 and so far the results have been pretty good. The one at 540 was shot in his bed and did not get up. I found 3 or 4 bullet fragments in opposite side hide and had the majority of the bullet exit. The one at 900 yards, the shot was about 4" back of where I intended to shoot and it also expanded and had similar results but not quite as much internal trauma. I have full confidence in them, but this year I will be trying some eld-x in a different caliber because my gun loves these things.

[AZ_Native]

Interesting feedback. Is the consensus that high velocity closer range shots may result in little or no expansion on smaller "big" game animals? Like I said, mine went 5 yards and dropped, so far be it from me to say this didn't result in a near instant kill. Point being the expansion. I too an now looking at the ELD-X only because the boxed Hornady ammo seems to shoot sub half inch out of my new Ruger RPR in 6.5 CM. I have the 140 Bergers and the hyped Nosler 142's to play with as well as the 143 ELD-X's. I see the Creedmoor becoming my deer gun, my 7mm becoming my "loan to a friend on a hunt" gun, and my 30 Nosler my big game round. Either way, I am curious to see other results. The 162 gr ELD-X seem to shoot really well out of my stock Sendero. That might become a good round for me in the future.... IF I CAN GET DRAWN!!!! dang 2017 deer draw results......

 

I think right now I am pretty safe out to 500 yards to make a consistent kill shot. Will be working with a few of my rifles to expand that range a little bit further. I'd like to have a solid gun to 600 yards, maybe 650. Anything beyond that I will probably work my way in to a better shot position, at least until I think my handloads and gun are solid enough for those long-butt 700+ yards shots. Who knows, I might get drawn for the side of a barn soon, so I'd better be ready!!!

[dse]

Only Berger I've ever seen used was a 80 gr Vld target fired from my 22-250 AI started at 3420 fps. 590 yd shot the bullet exited and looked like a 4x4 would fit in the wound channel.

[dcshorthairs]

[AZ_Native]

DSE, that is part of the reason why I question sticking with Berger bullets for hunting. I don't want to waste potential meat. One of their claims is essentially the bullet "exploding" inside and creating a massive wound channel. It also potentially equates to a massive exit wound and meat waste. DCSHORTHAIRS, I have seen all their videos. That video certainly doesn't replicate what I saw on my Coues. I'm not discrediting the effectiveness of the Berger bullets, but I am certainly questioning my overall desire to use them as a hunting bullet moving forward. Lack of expansion in my case, conversely, massive expansion in their "typical case" that leads to more meat loss than I would prefer. This kill worked out well for me, but I guess my point of this post is to get a multitude of in-field experience and feedback. At this point, I am not sure what to expect from a Berger bullet at any range based on their claims/videos and my personal experience. I'm interested in hearing more feedback from the group!

[Zeke-BE]

I think more handloaders and target shooters use Bergers than Hornady or Nosler combined (just from what Ive seen). So more info about bergers that are out there. That being said I also had a friend who shoots a 30-378 210 HVLD and had it cooking fast. Nailed an elk at 700 yards and dropped it in its spot. Oddly it got back up after good placement (from what the spotter said) and we tracked it over a mile and never found him. The following year a family member uses his rifle and shoots lot closer and killed it but it penciled through. He stopped shooting them after that day. I have found more pencil through shots through the internet and you tube about bergers. But there are alot more success about this round then these other shootings. Hornday Amax I have never seen a bad report (as of yet on my behalf) but the ELD-m are the Amaxs with new tips and there are some really good (real kill reviews) about the ELD-x. Im shooting the ELD-x and its working ok. But I will not hesitate to shoot the ELD-m at all. I have my 300 win mag 0.222 MOA on the 208 ELDm. But for Bergers I just think there are so many of them out there you just happen to see more results, you know Law of Large numbers, but enough it has me concern, but not enough to not use them.

[Red Rabbit]

AZNative, what was the internal wound channel like between the entrance and exit holes?

[Zeke-BE]

DSE, that is part of the reason why I question sticking with Berger bullets for hunting. I don't want to waste potential meat. One of their claims is essentially the bullet "exploding" inside and creating a massive wound channel. It also potentially equates to a massive exit wound and meat waste. DCSHORTHAIRS, I have seen all their videos. That video certainly doesn't replicate what I saw on my Coues. I'm not discrediting the effectiveness of the Berger bullets, but I am certainly questioning my overall desire to use them as a hunting bullet moving forward. Lack of expansion in my case, conversely, massive expansion in their "typical case" that leads to more meat loss than I would prefer. This kill worked out well for me, but I guess my point of this post is to get a multitude of in-field experience and feedback. At this point, I am not sure what to expect from a Berger bullet at any range based on their claims/videos and my personal experience. I'm interested in hearing more feedback from the group!

 

No one cares about front shoulder deer meat anyways, that ends up jerky meat for me. The loins and rump meat is where its at

[AZbowhntr]

I shot my coues buck last year using a 140 gr Berger out of a 270 WSM at just over 200 yards and he did a back flip and died on the spot. The exit hole was right at an inch wide.

[dse]

Only reason we used the rifle load combo on that hunt was my brothers 6.5-300 wby decided to badly misbehave. Went from shooting 3/4 moa to minute of hillside. I've never really had alot of interest in the Berger hunting bullets mainly because of their own advertising. Sheds 40% to 90% of it's weight didn't sound very reliable to me. Sounds alot like may explode and may not.

 

My go to hunting bullet is the Swift Scirocco II. The few I've recovered from animals have all expanded over 2 1/2 x the original diameter while retaining 80% to 90% of their weight. With the exception one fairly poorly placed bullet on a cow elk everything hit has crumbled in it's tracks. The cow was hit in the liver and made it about 50 yds and crashed.

 

Ive used Barnes tsx & ttsx, Nosler partition, Hornady sst, Remington core lok, and a few other with less than satisfactory results or out right failures, but have zero complaints on the Swift

[WHT_MTNMAN]

I shoot a 210 Berger out of my 300 ultra and a 140 out of my 280ai. Great results from over 1000 yards to 80 yards.

My wife shot a coues buck at 80 yards and there was a hole the size of 2 softballs out the neck. (Quartered away) Shots over 300 yards rarely exit with either caliber. I love a bullet that will dump all of its energy inside the animal.

[AZ_Native]

Zeke, interesting comments. I have not searched pencil holes for Bergers, but sound like I am not the only case. No doubt, those bullets fly like a lazer when you figure out the handload, and I can certainly attest to that. I trust their BC numbers more than any other bullet. Not sure if the thin jacket promotes variable expansion responses that people see. Mine was definitely pencil in, pencil out. However, it dropped within 5 yards. Any solid double lung is going to drop an animal within a reasonable distance.

 

Red Rabbit. Unfortunately, it was my last day to hunt. My buddy had to leave the day earlier, so I had to do all the hard work alone and didn't have a chance to take pictures of the vitals. If I recall, I only remember seeing pencil holes thru the lungs. Wish I would have taken the time to take those pictures. I can't complain about the fact the deer was 5 yards from the shot, but this thread is about the other factors obviously. I guess I am still perplexed that they advertise so heavily on the massive wound channel and exit, but I just didn't see that in this case.

 

WHT MTNMAN, that goes back to why I don't know that I want to use Bergers for hunting now. Sounds like too many pencil hole results and the other results are more like softball exits. Lots of bullets out there that keep their weight instead of exploding. Not sure what I will get now using my Bergers. I don't trust the Nosler ABLR for many reasons, but I am starting to trust the BC numbers I see from Hornady's ELD-X's. Interesting what Zeke mentioned about using the ELD-M's for hunting. I emailed Hornady and told them they are missing the boat with the 6.5CM. The 147 gr far outmatches the 143 ELD-X in performance. They need to produce that 147 in the X variation for hunting. Given Zeke's mention, maybe I should just use the -M for hunting though...

 

Zeke, I disagree with you 100% on the meat. The Coues front should meat I have had is incredible. Some of it was ground, but the steaks were every bit as tender and tasty as any other part of the animal, including the tenderloin! But, maybe I just shoot prime deer....

[WHT_MTNMAN]

From what I have seen it doesn't matter what bullet you use if you hit only hide. I've seen AB, partition,Barnes etc..leave pencil holes when they miss ribs, bone. That is why I aim for the shoulder. I've had quite a bit less meat loss with Berger than with many other bullets. My results may not be the norm but I usually have them penetrate and break the shoulder, absolutely destroy the insides and stop short of damaging much of the meat on the far shoulder. Just my experience. The only time I've seen them "fail" is with a gut shot. ( not me) but not many bullets can compensate for poor shot placement. That is another reason to shoot the most accurate bullet in your rifle whatever that may be.