Hybrids

[ajohunter]

Whitesheep, I have seen that same antler drooping on Elk before. Its always on young bull calves that are still nursing from their mothers. The antler gets turned down while its still in velvet growing when it puts its head under its mother. Looks like you got yourself a young tender Muley there!

[gamespec]

Some game wardens don't know much about hybrids themselves. Jesse(pictured) was going to get a full body mount of this rare trophy. He showed the deer to a game warden. The warden said it was not a true hybrid but a 90%/10% mix in favor of mule deer. Dejected, Jesse threw out the cape(kept the tail), since as a mule deer it was not big enough to be mount worthy to him. Two days later Heffelfinger ,I believe, calls him up wanting to see his hybrid and sets him straight that there is no such thing as a 90%/10% hybrid since they are sterile. A hybrid can only be 50% MD 50%WT genetically. Phenotypically(looks) the deer will be dominated by one species over the other, but genetically it can only be 50/50. As far as I can tell, Jesse holds no bitterness toward the original misinformation which makes him a much better man then myself.

Bob

 

Hope its not too late to jump in here. I was at meetings then trying to shoot a mule deer myself, then had a colleague and world-renowned antler expert visiting, then off on a Jr hunt with my son. Luckily he shot his deer opening morning and I can now get back to work. Whitesheep I did get your message and will call you - I am currently wading through 200+ e-mails and had 16 voice mail messages, and a pile in my mailbox. We may seem like unresponsive bureaucrats sometimes, but often we are just plain buried.

 

Reference the text above, I think all the Wildlife Managers in SE AZ know how to diagnose a hybrid after all the discussions I've had with them and info I've provided. I thought Jesse told me that the Wildlife Manager knew it was a hybrid (I personally know that one does), but Jesse was in a hurry and didn't think to cape it and have it mounted. He didn't say anything about a full body mount. Hybrids can come in all different combinations of percentages because the females are fertile (not the males) and can back-cross to either species. I am currently doing some genetic research with Boone & Crockett to develop a genetic method to test for hybridization using even antler shavings so that will be exciting. I have tissue samples for that research from a captive herd in Alberta that has all sorts of combinations of WT and MD -- including one that is 11/16 mule deer!

 

I found the account of the 2 species mixing in the Galiuros to be fascinating - great first hand account. It is interesting because genetics and knowledge of breeding behavior show that it is usually (not always) a WT buck on a MD doe.

 

I do have pics of a hybrid that was shot in 34B and butchered in St. David. Many of you may have heard about this one. The hunter gave me permission to post these.

 

Note the tails are often WT-like, but some are black on the back.

 

The only non-genetic way to determine if something is a hybrid is the metatarsal gland. This is on the OUTSIDE of the hind leg. They are 4+ inches in MD and less than 1" in WT. Hybrids are right in between. (you measure the black ridge under the fur)

 

In the case of this deer, Regional Supervisor Gerry Perry was there and recognized this deer as a hybrid and took these pictures for me and called me while he was still there. I am trying to get a tissue sample to include in our research, but the hunter's friend who has the meat has not contacted me and I don't have his number. For anyone interested in more on hybrids there are several sources out there that explain it all in detail.

 

JIM

[COUESAZ]

I am glad you posted this. This was the only one i had ever heard of being said to be a true hybrid Being taken in that area.I have seen one more monster coues buck back in the late 80's that always ran with a herd of mule deer and even rutted with them. I saw it fighting mule deer bucks to breed mule deer does but it had the body and tail of a coues buck.. Intresting write up.

[billrquimby]

"Hybrids can come in all different combinations of percentages because the females are fertile (not the males) and can back-cross to either species."

 

 

Jim: All I was taught, and all that I've read, has said that the test of a species is that the offspring of different species of the same genus are infertile.

 

I know there are exceptions; the most notable being the rare mules that give birth.

 

Are the hybrid female mule deer/whitetail crosses always fertile or just occasionally?

 

Incidentally, the antlers on that hybrid from St. David remind me of many of the deer I saw at The Sanctuary game ranch in Michigan.

 

They had been confined in a 640-acre enclosure for so many generations that non-typical antlers were far from rare in that 600-buck, 400-doe closely managed population, and more than a few had mule-deer-like branched antlers like the hybrid buck in your photos.

 

Bill Quimby

[bobbyo]

Jim,

Thank you for reconfirming what everyone on the sight all ready knows. I am an idiot. I apologize to anyone for prepetuating myths that I have claimed to be debunking. In addition, all apologies to game managers every where they obviously know more than me. My new enlightenment has brought up many questions that I hope you could answer.

 

1. What is the incidence of 3/4 hybrids in the wild coues whitetail population?( possible computer projections)

2. At what point would a male with partial mixed genes have viable sperm? Would it be 75% 90% ect. At this point wouldn't there be logrithmic pollution of gene pool, due to the virtual unlimited offspring a male could produce.

3. Does the correlation between a metatarsal gland and hybridization carry over to 3/4 and greater hybrid? Would a 3/4 WT have a 1.75 metatarsal.

4. Will Coues bucks with partial hybridization be disqualified from the record books? hence, your below quote.

I am currently doing some genetic research with Boone & Crockett to develop a genetic method to test for hybridization using even antler shavings so that will be exciting.

JIM

 

Thank you,

The Idiot.

[gamespec]

"Hybrids can come in all different combinations of percentages because the females are fertile (not the males) and can back-cross to either species."

 

 

Are the hybrid female mule deer/whitetail crosses always fertile or just occasionally?

 

Bill Quimby

 

The deal with one sex being sterile was first described in a scientific paper in 1922 by a guy named Haldane and is refered to as "Haldane's Rule." It says that which ever sex has the different sex chromosomes (females have XX & males have XY in mammals) will be sterile when hybridized. In birds the females have the different chromosomes (XO vs. XX in males) so it is the female hybrid birds that are sterile. So according to that all WT x MD hybrid males should be sterile and all females fertile. I have never heard of a female hybrid that was sterile nor a male hybrid that was fertile. One study looked at an F1 (50:50) hybrid male testicular tissue under a microscope and reported that there was no physical reason he would be sterile so he must not be, however they went on to say that it was with does in the pen for the last 2 years and there were no fawns.

 

Can everyone see the 3 hybrid pictures I posted in my message above? They showed up last night from home, but not here on my work computer.

 

JIM

[gamespec]

1. What is the incidence of 3/4 hybrids in the wild coues whitetail population?( possible computer projections)

2. At what point would a male with partial mixed genes have viable sperm? Would it be 75% 90% ect. At this point wouldn't there be logrithmic pollution of gene pool, due to the virtual unlimited offspring a male could produce.

3. Does the correlation between a metatarsal gland and hybridization carry over to 3/4 and greater hybrid? Would a 3/4 WT have a 1.75 metatarsal.

4. Will Coues bucks with partial hybridization be disqualified from the record books? hence, your below quote.

I am currently doing some genetic research with Boone & Crockett to develop a genetic method to test for hybridization using even antler shavings so that will be exciting.

JIM

 

Thank you,

The Idiot.

 

Bobby, I hope I didn't insult you and come across like I was correcting you personally - the value of these forums is so we can all learn from others. I learn lots of stuff on here (when I have time to visit) from those of you who are out there seeing all sorts of interesting things.

 

1. Don't know. We would first need a genetic test to identify 1/2, 3/4, etc hybrids (working on it). Then we would have to use that test on a big sample of deer in the population. Just looking at deer (not DNA) it is very very hard to tell a 3/4 hybrid. I'm not sure I can do it. No one has documented what they look like with some animals known to be a 3/4. When a 1/2 back crosses to one of the parent species, they seem to start looking very much like that parent species.

 

2. Good question. I don't know the answer, but I may know someone who does. I'll ask the retired guys who had lots of hybrids of different combinations in pens. In fact, I built a spreadsheet with all their pedigree information so I may be able to check at home and answer that myself. I'll get back to you. I don't think there would be a logrithmic pollution of the gene pool, but certainly some contamination that would be diluted each generation.

 

3. I think so. I think the metatarsal gland of a 1/2 hybrid (~ 2") is bigger in her fawn if she breeds with a mule deer male. It might be about 3". We don't really know .... or do we? That would be another good question for the Alberta guys who had lots of hybrids of different combinations (if they measured MT glands). I don't know of anyone who has kept several generations of hybrids.

 

4. Any deer not 100% Coues is currently disqualified from B&C records - that's why B&C asked me to facilitate this research. It is only fair for everyone that the record books reflect pure Coues WT. There was a deer several years ago that looked like a hybrid in the pics and when they tried to enter it, B&C said they had to show it to me first and the hunter never answered the letter or tried to enter it, so that was probably another hybrid I could have documented.

 

JIM

[gamespec]

In one of my messages above I said I'd get back with information about the fertility of 3/4 WT, and 7/8 mule deer and so forth. And also what the metatarsal glands look like in 3/4 WT, and 7/8 WT, etc.

 

The only people that would have that information are the researchers who raised all sorts of hybrids in captivity in Alberta. I even have some tissue samples from 15/16 mule deer and 1/16 whitetail. I e-mailed the lead researcher and he said they are in the process of publishing that infomation and so he is not ready to release it until they complete their paper. This is very understandable - we'll just have to wait.

 

Here is his message:

"Hello Jim

Yes we have recorded the changes in metatarsal changes

in the F2 and F3 generations. And we have traced the

fertility of the hybrids. You may recall that we wish

to publish our findings on this information. We were

pleased to hear of your progress on the genetic test.

 

Keep in touch

B&B"

 

 

Jim Heffelfinger