Hybrids

[COOSEFAN]

Casey, I forgot about that. That buck had a very weird tail ( not as weird as that one posted above ) but it was definitely different. The tip to tip spread on this bucks ears was almost 21".......my buck this year was 16"! This pic shows the Muley characteristics that Casey is talkin' about, but antlers are never a good thing to judge in this case......it would have to be body differences that visually would prove it's a hybrid to any degree.

 

[singleshot]

Take a look at AZ. Rifle hunts page 12. My wife Suzy killed this buck, minimum 130# dressed weight. Big ears, big head, big body, mulie face, standing right beside a respectable 3 point that he completely dwarfed. All coues whitetail?

Conchran J, killed less than two miles from another monster that you know well!

[firstcoueswas80]

dude, that buck is a PIG!!!!! his body is huge! how were his teeth? do you recall?

[galiuro mountain man]

I have seen one time in my life where a mule/whitetail cross can happen. I do not know whether the doe conciecved, but I do know what I saw.

 

It was the first part of Jan in unit 32 of AZ. This particular area I saw mulies and whitetails feeding kind of intermixed with eachother during the Aug archery season. There was a definite line between the two herds, 7 wt does and about 20 md does. None had fawns with them, so I imagine that they were not bred, or they lost fawns before birth due to lack of feed or water.

 

Then something interesting happened, the does all started feeding together. I thought to myself it was pretty cool they were tolerant of eachother. But, it got even better, these does all started greeting eachother like deer will from the same herd. They licked eachother on the muzzle area then sniffed and passed by eachother, wt & md together. It was kind of wierd to see this, so I kept watching them. They all bedded in the same area intermixed.

 

Later in the Jan hunt I went to the same area and saw the other part to the story. The does were intermixed again, but what I saw was a trip. The mule deer bucks were chasing does hard, and the whitetails were just hanging out on the sidelines. After a few minutes the anther big mule deer shows up and was chased off by the buck that was with the does to begin with. When he was gone, the wt bucks ran to the first doe he came to and did his bussiness. The mule deer does were still running from any buck that came so the wt bucks were getting on wt does to start, but they were triing to get on the md does.

THen the big md buck would run them off.

 

I decided to get closer because I knew the md would eventually run one of the big wt bucks my way, or he would get close enough for a shot. I got about 100yds from the closest doe and watched. It started to snow and the md does werent running as hard from the md buck anymore, but he was busy running off the other md buck. Finally the two md bucks started pushing eachother around, and this is when it happened. One of the wt bucks mounted a md doe. I couldnt believe it. I had always been told that they wouldnt do that, but they did. It was the first doe the wt buck came to and she let him have his way. She looked to be a young doe, small and spindley, but she was a md. I do not know if she conceived, but he was on her about a minute, and had stopped before the md buck came back, so I think he had finished.

 

I have not seen any live cross breeds there yet, but I have seen one that was shot in the same area that I know had to be a cross. It was a 3x3 with md coloring mostly, the dark brow over eyes, black tip on tail, and white butt patch, but it had white rings around eyes, short ears for a md and a fan tail. It was hard to distinguish what rack it had because a lot of md seem to have a wt rack when only a 3x3. It also did not have brow tines, so it was hard to tell from that. It was also a smaller bodied deer, about the size of a wt.

 

All I know is that it was a very interesting deer, and I have not seen one like that since then.

[firstcoueswas80]

What is the law on shooting a cross breed? how does AZGFD tell? what if you have a white tail tag, shoot a deer with a huge body, muley antlers and a 'white tail' like th ebuck posted above?!

[IHunt2live]

What is the law on shooting a cross breed? how does AZGFD tell? what if you have a white tail tag, shoot a deer with a huge body, muley antlers and a 'white tail' like th ebuck posted above?!

 

If it is a hybrid they can't do anything but you better make sure before you shoot!!

[COOSEFAN]

I believe it's a judgement call on the Warden that checks ya (if ya get checked). If you have a WT tag, your deer better have a big fluffy white tail! It don't matter how big body he is or if he has WT antlers or vice versa........the butt n' tail needs to match the tag pretty much

[firstcoueswas80]

I believe it's a judgement call on the Warden that checks ya (if ya get checked). If you have a WT tag, your deer better have a big fluffy white tail! It don't matter how big body he is or if he has WT antlers or vice versa........the butt n' tail needs to match the tag pretty much

 

 

 

thats what I was thinking. I mean i know body and horns dont mean anything, but i was wondering if it basically fell on the nargas. * that means but for all you gueros (thats pernounced wet-o's)*

[COOSEFAN]

actually, that buck that bobbyo posted could go both ways......but if I shot it with a WT tag......I would tell the G+F that it was flaggin' it's tail before I shot and I couldn't see any other part of it's body aside from the rack! That one would be tricky with a WT tag!

[Coues79]

I would have to say that no matter what, you would have to go by the tail. There are too many instances where coues deer may have a side that forks like a muley and vice versa. I'd put up an argument if I took a deer with a fluffy white tail and someone told me it was a muley. It may have more muley characteristics but it does have what counts..... a whitetail.

 

Singleshot, yeah I know where your sayin. Hope to find that ones offspring someday when I've got my rifle and tag in hand and beat the older brother to the shot. It's my turn

[azcouesandelk]

http://forums.coueswhitetail.com/forums/in...ic=7336&hl=

 

Here is an example of a mule deer looking rack on a whitetail from this year!

[bobbyo]

Some game wardens don't know much about hybrids themselves. Jesse(pictured) was going to get a full body mount of this rare trophy. He showed the deer to a game warden. The warden said it was not a true hybrid but a 90%/10% mix in favor of mule deer. Dejected, Jesse threw out the cape(kept the tail), since as a mule deer it was not big enough to be mount worthy to him. Two days later Heffelfinger ,I believe, calls him up wanting to see his hybrid and sets him straight that there is no such thing as a 90%/10% hybrid since they are sterile. A hybrid can only be 50% MD 50%WT genetically. Phenotypically(looks) the deer will be dominated by one species over the other, but genetically it can only be 50/50. As far as I can tell, Jesse holds no bitterness toward the original misinformation which makes him a much better man then myself.

Bob

[bobbyo]

http://forums.coueswhitetail.com/forums/in...ic=7336&hl=

 

Here is an example of a mule deer looking rack on a whitetail from this year!

 

Other then the split G2s there is nothing to indicate that this deer is anything, but a whitetail. The size and configuration is all whitetail ( I am really jealous of both these deer by the way). I believe antlers in both MD and WT are so varied it is probably the worst possible indicator of a hybrid buck, yet used the most to discount big coues whitetails as not being the real McCoy.

Bob

[azcouesandelk]

http://forums.coueswhitetail.com/forums/in...ic=7336&hl=

 

Here is an example of a mule deer looking rack on a whitetail from this year!

 

Other then the split G2s there is nothing to indicate that this deer is anything, but a whitetail. The size and configuration is all whitetail ( I am really jealous of both these deer by the way). I believe antlers in both MD and WT are so varied it is probably the worst possible indicator of a hybrid buck, yet used the most to discount big coues whitetails as not being the real McCoy.

Bob

 

 

I know what you mean by saying that antlers are the worst way to tell the difference between whitetail and mule deer. In my honest opinion I believe you have to see the tail in order to make a sure fire decision on what species it is. I thought it was neat how we were discussing hybrids and this great coues was taken with matching split g2's.

[marcfc]

I had a mule deer tag and the tail and the rest of the animal were pure mulie; ears, tail, color and all. I don't know enough about the tarsal glands to have told the difference and they are gone now. I will gall Jim at the Tucson AZGF and send him the pictures I have. The head and cape are at Sievers North Mountain Taxidermy in Phoenix. Frank at Sievers indicated he was going to contact the AZGF as they are always interested in weird stuff.

 

The deer was absolutely clean; a healthy specimen. (I just finished a bowl of back strap chili with my wife. We agreed it is better than elk.) There was no obvious damage to the left antler socket, but it did face forward. In another year this guy would have been in pain as the last two tines rubbed his nose and jaw. I did him a favor, but not one the two does with him appreciated.

 

Thanks for the response. I'll let you know what I find out.