Resources for wolf debates

[Xnt]

I could use some good conservation and science-based authoritative sources for arguing with the hysterical anti-science, pro-wolf crowd. I want it to be just that: science based over their emotion. It seems as though Google/YT's censorship really pushes the pro-wolf narrative. I'm specifically looking at the issue of canis lupus occidentalis replacing canis lupus irremotus in the GYE--I have a suspicion that the so-called reclassification that has been done in recent years was to show that the wolves transplanted were the same as the wolves that were present historically. thanks for any info you can provide.

[countrykid]

Sorry, I hate the wolves

[Flatlander]

RInella as talked about this on his MeatEater Podcast a few times. From the beginning I have felt like wolves needed to be managed like wildlife. We have hundreds of other species that are under state control, what makes them believe that the second they have responsibility for wolves that is going to change. The answer is that the most outspoken portion of the hunter demgraphic says just that, SSS, smoke a pack a day, etc. Well, that gives them all the ammunition they need to stir up hysteria and tie things up in court.

[trphyhntr]

[wish2hunt]

I could use some good conservation and science-based authoritative sources for arguing with the hysterical anti-wolf crowd. I want it to be just that: science based over their emotion. It seems as though Google/YT's censorship really pushes the pro-wolf narrative. I'm specifically looking at the issue of canis lupus occidentalis replacing canis lupus irremotus in the GYE--I have a suspicion that the so-called reclassification that has been done in recent years was to show that the wolves transplanted were the same as the wolves that were present historically. thanks for any info you can provide.

I see no use for them they all need to go and as soon as possible.

[Benbrown]

http://www.spokesman.com/blogs/outdoors/2012/aug/01/wolf-experts-confronts-myth-about-native-vs-re-introduced-wolves/

http://howlcolorado.org/2010/04/22/detangling-the-subspecies-controversy/

[firstcoueswas80]

I wrote several papers in college about the effect of reintroducing wolves to GYE. Surprisngly, my liberal, anti-hunting minded professors (i had to present to a panel of 5-7 if I recall correctly) were actally open to discussion about the topic. It probably helped that I had my now 14 year old, then cute and cuddly puppy with me.

[Non-Typical Solutions]

In a magazine booklet i picked up @G$F it states that the wolf never existed in the current relocation area but roamed further south down in what is now Mexico!

So technically according to their own information it is not a reintroduction but an introduction!

[brian390]

boom

[Benbrown]

In a magazine booklet i picked up @G$F it states that the wolf never existed in the current relocation area but roamed further south down in what is now Mexico!

So technically according to their own information it is not a reintroduction but an introduction!

The Diamond A Ranch down the road had a full-time wolf trapper for years, and Monroe Dunagan, who lived about 12 miles south of Animas was also a very active wolf trapper. Dave Dunagan had photos of his dad with lots of wolves and wolf pelts. If you read J. Frank Dobie's biography of Ben Lilly, you will see that he killed a LOT of wolves up in the Gila, pretty much right where they are being reintroduced in New Mexico. Many of the wolves being reintroduced are descended from wolves captured in Mexico because they had already been extirpated from the U.S. by the time the Fish and Wildlife Service began their restoration program, but there were already quite a few in the U.S. in zoos that had been bred in captivity.

[GreyGhost85]

I suggest you talk to some ranchers to get first hand knowledge of their impact........killemall

[Jimmer Negamanee]

Good for you for asking for information to be used in a civil and rational conversation. We could use more of those nowadays. We are each entitled to our own opinions but we are not entitled to our own facts.

 

Some ranchers don’t like wolves because wolves occasionally eat a cow or a calf that the rancher is running on our public land. Some ranchers don’t like elk either because elk are grazers (like cows) and are therefore compete for forage with their cattle that they are running on our public land.

 

So the cattle growers associations lobby, quite successfully, against wolf reintroduction and for issuing more elk tags (especially cow elk tags) to reduce pressure on the range.

 

Some hunters don’t like wolves because they think wolves reduce elk populations and thereby reduce hunting opportunities. But they don’t see the role cattle grazing plays in that equation. You can see how this issue gets triangulated pretty quickly.

 

I’m not a dirty hippie, but I will say that one of my coolest outdoor experiences was canoeing on a little lake outside of Lutsen, Minnesota as the sun was setting. My buddy and I had a stringer full of walleye and had just started to row back to the cabin when we heard the first howl. Soon it was a chorus. Every hair on my body was on end. I thought about the dawn of our species when wolves and people were more evenly matched. (Okay, that last sentenced seemed pretty hippie-ish.)

 

I like the idea of managing wolves like other wildlife. Maybe issue one tag a year (at first) to make them a monetarily valuable resource (for tag or guiding fees). Then we may realize that the SSS crowd is stealing something monetary from all of us.

 

Sometimes the answers to life’s problems are binary, a 1 or a 0, black or white. But mostly I’ve found the answers to life’s problems to be on the gray scale. That’s why life is so interesting. Thanks for bringing this up.

[brian390]

kill them all

[wish2hunt]

kill them all

Yep

[IA Born]

I have a peer-reviewed article about the Yellowstone wolves and its a great science-based approach to what happens in herd dynamics. In this particular article, it documents black and grizzly bear predation on elk calves as being higher than wolf predation. It also documents what we all know in wildlife management and that is the reality of population ecology. Wolves are having virtually no impact on the larger herds in the study area because they are able to reproduce faster than they are being predated. Small elk herds are shrinking because they cannot reproduce fast enough. The funny thing is, this would be the case with or without wolves, especially in bear (black and grizzly) country. Throw in mountain lion predation and it quickly becomes far more than a "wolf issue". I also have the article where biologists for both Wyoming and Montana have gone on record as saying that their scientific data show that wolves have not had the impact on elk herds that everyone thought they would. Elk herds are doing just fine in those two states, even with healthy wolf populations. The first article I mention is too big to attach here, but I'll gladly email it to anyone that wants it. The other one is from Peterson's Hunting magazine a couple of years ago and I have it at home. I can scan it and share it later this week if anyone wants that one.

 

The funny thing is, if you go back and read Lewis and Clark's journals, they describe an abundance of wolves, grizzly bears, elk, moose, black bears, mountain lion, and deer, all living in perfect population dynamics. It wasn't until white settlers moved west that issues arose and then it was, in reality, a competition for resources.

 

And I've seen parts of the genetic data for wolves in Arizona. While it may be in question as to which subspecies was in which part of the state, its clear that wolves were fairly widespread in Arizona, including well within the current reintroduction site. Wolves are another reason why I really hate the subspecies concept. Gray wolves (Canis lupus) were actually widespread across the entire U.S. at one point. And, yes, I'm all for removing Federal protections and managing them properly as a big game species once science-based recovery goals have been met. Idaho and Montana have done a great job of managing them as big game species, setting quotas and issuing tags.

 

I could honestly care less if people love or hate wolves. But they, like all game species, should be managed based on sound science and not emotion.