Number of rifling grooves?

[300RUM]

I have a .308 rifle that needs a new barrel. I tried to avoid the task by sending the money to NM for elk and antelope tags. No luck they are sending it back. Back to barrel shopping. I have decided to re-chamber to 7mm-08 AI and run a 1-9 twist with 168 gr bullets. I will probably go with a Lilja and will have a choice of 3, 4 or 6 groove. I would be interested in hearing some arguments, pro and con, for each groove count.

[10Turkeys]

I was always more concerned about the twist more than the grooves, I know lilja is a quality product in a .22 cal barrel, but I can't say as that I have known too many people that have one in a larger bore. The .22 that I just picked up has a Lilja barrel on it, and it has shot all right so far with the ammo that I have ran thru it.

[azsugarbear]

Lilja is a quality barrel maker. I have owned several center fire rifles with Lilja barrels. I do know that fewer lands/grooves can spell trouble for longer bullets with more bearing surface. A rare problem - so I wouldn't worry about it for your 7mm-08 project. In general, they are easier to clean than the higher-count land & groove barrels.

[PRDATR]

Can't comment on the amount of grooves but I had a 700 factory heavy barrel 7-08 and it was 9 1/4 and a hot Sierra HPBTM 168's in clover leafs or smaller.

[L Cazador]

In the 50 plus years that I have been shooting, I've shot 2,3,4,6, as well as the 10 micro groove barrels. The old adage that the less grooves the easier it was to clean and that barrel life would be lengthened has no validity. After I bought my bore scope back in the 90's, I confirmed that all was a bunch of hog wash. Stay with a 4 or 6 groove. If you're going to shoot 168's in the 7/08, i'd recommend a longer throat and a long action for that combo. Avoid seating bullets past the neck/shoulder junction so you can take full advantage of the entire case cap on the 08, you'll need it with the 168g. I did the 7/08 improved, 40 degree shoulder and it's a definite improvement over the standard 20 degree shoulder.

[lancetkenyon]

Lilja has no love for the 5R? I would go 4 groove myself. Top shooter in PRS in 2015 shot a 4 groove Hawk Hill.

[yotebuster]

Lilja has no love for the 5R? I would go 4 groove myself. Top shooter in PRS in 2015 shot a 4 groove Hawk Hill.

I thought there was some science behind 5 groove in that it puts the lands opposite the grooves and thereby reducing deformation? I would think any odd number would do that. No personal input on which is better I just thought I read that somewhere along the line?

[lancetkenyon]

I have read the same. All of my barrels are 5R groove. But Lilja doesn't make a 5 groove barrel.

[300RUM]

In the 50 plus years that I have been shooting, I've shot 2,3,4,6, as well as the 10 micro groove barrels. The old adage that the less grooves the easier it was to clean and that barrel life would be lengthened has no validity. After I bought my bore scope back in the 90's, I confirmed that all was a bunch of hog wash. Stay with a 4 or 6 groove. If you're going to shoot 168's in the 7/08, i'd recommend a longer throat and a long action for that combo. Avoid seating bullets past the neck/shoulder junction so you can take full advantage of the entire case cap on the 08, you'll need it with the 168g. I did the 7/08 improved, 40 degree shoulder and it's a definite improvement over the standard 20 degree shoulder.

Awesome advice on loading the 7mm-08 AI with a long COAL. I have a 7.4 lb scoped lightweight 7-mm-08 AI rifle with a Wyatt's extended mag and the ejection port milled longer and the throat cut longer. 140 NBT at 2950 from a 20" barrel. My experience with this rifle made me choose to re-chamber the .308 to 7mm-08 AI as well. It is an entirely different gun, a Remington 700 LTR from the Tactical / LE side of Remington. Basically a baby PSS. The gun has a HS stock and 20 inch barrel. I intend to go to a 24 inch.

 

I am looking for a quality stainless barrel that can be ordered from the manufacture with spiral fluting. Previously I have always used 6 groove but I am thinking of trying something new. The two options I came up with were Bartlein and Lilja. I am leaning toward Lilja because of a shorter delivery time. I am open to suggestions.

[300RUM]

I was looking around trying to educate myself and found this on Accurate Shooter, authored by Frank Green of Bartelin Barrels. Thought others here may find it interesting.

 

O.K. Tightneck this one is for you. It's a long one!!! I might bounce around a bit so bear with me. I will be talking about barrel life and accuracy both because they go hand in hand. That's why I will probably be bouncing around or have things in no particular order. I'm not a english major!
The number of grooves? To me the number of grooves has no real bearing on accuracy or barrel life! Some say if you want hard core accuracy go with conventional rifling vs. 5R type rifled barrel. Some say the 5R's copper foul less. I say B.S. I've seen 5R's copper foul with the best of them. Some say the 5R barrels will seal the bullet better in the bore and you get more velocity out of them. Again I haven't seen this either. Some say the 5R barrels don't leave a burr on the bullet and the bullet will drift less in the wind. I haven't seen this either.
99% of the barrels we make for short range bench shooters are 4 groove conventional rifling.
Across the course high powers shooters seems to be a 50/50 split.
Long range prone shooters seem to prefer the 5R.
Long range bench shooters I would say the preference is towards conventional rifling.
I've got a conventional 5 groove,not 5R) on my short range bench gun. Wanted to try it! The gun hammers!
I've shot 5R and a 4 groove in prone matches out to a 1000 and even compared both in the same match,two man team) and saw no difference. Our team came in 3rd for points. Same chambers, same loads! Both guns we're chambered in 6mm Rem. with a custom throat. In that match we shot 107 Sierra's,I've shot mostly Berger 105's after that). Both are 1-8 twist barrels. Velocity difference between the two was 30fps. The loads average 3155fps. between the two. We didn't use anymore or any less windage on one gun vs. the other!
Some will say the odd number of grooves will help with jacket failure? This is because the odd number of grooves vs. an even groove barrel will distort or upset the bullet jacket less. This is because the lands don't directly oppose one another. I believe this has some merit but it is hard to prove. Read the next paragraph though.
I compared a 5R and a 4 groove in the match at a 1000yds. the match I mentioned earlier. The 4 groove was the second barrel in a row that I had when I was at Krieger that would blow up one manufacturers bullets but not another. I stopped shooting them for awhile because I was to scared to use them.,Who the bullet makers are is not important. I still shoot they're bullets!) So I wanted to see what would happen. Bought some more of those one makers bullets and guess what. No failures in either one. So in away that kinda blows the theory!?
Both barrels we're made to the same bore and groove size and same twist. Same chamber and the same loads shot thru them. Why didn't the one barrel blow up anymore of the one makers bullets anymore? I chalk it up to a different lot. Maybe the lot of bullets I got had problems with the cores or jackets? Hard to say!
Barrel life? Again I don't see a difference in the number of grooves effecting barrel life etc...One barrel maker who is making 3 groove barrels the last I heard was claiming they last longer. This might be true in a button rifled barrel because of the wider lands. On average I don't see a button rifled barrel lasting as long as a cut rifled barrel. Why?
Because the button rifling operation work hardens the bore. I'm not saying a button barrel will not go a long time or a cut barrel will not burn out early as I've seen both. It's just what we see as an average. Can I put a number on it. Not really but if I had to I would say about 20% longer on cut barrels but this all depends on the accuracy level each individual shooter wants/needs, how good they are not to mention a whole ton of other variables that effect barrel life. One guy shoots a powder that is more abrasive than another is an example. Not to mention the steel from one lot to another even if you are getting the steel from the same supplier can be a variable. The list doesn't stop almost.
When we we're at Krieger back around 2000 Tracy made the tooling for a 3 groove .30cal. palma barrels and we made a couple for Mid Tompkins. Mid told me that accuracy wise out to 800 yards they shot just fine compared to the 4 grooves. The only problem was both barrels we're a flat 100-150fps. slower than the 4 grooves so they wouldn't cut it at 900 and a 1000 yards. due to the velocity loss. Why? Maybe because of the wider lands? Different lot of steel? Hard to say sometimes but that is my guess the wider lands.
Also at Krieger right before we we're gone from they're we made a cut rifled barrel and a button rifled barrel in .224 cal. for John. He chambered them up in .22-250 and put them on some prairie dog guns that he took out west. They we're made out of the same lot of steel and got the same loads thru them. Accruacy wise both shot great but the button barrel was exhibiting more wear with the same round count on both. Both barrels we're being shot in the same conditions and the same loads we're being put thru them.
I've seen 2 groove, 3's, 4's, 5's,5R's) and 6 groove barrels all shoot excellent. So again I say there is no difference in in accuracy or barrel life but when you compare one or the other you should be comparing/testing the barrels made out of the same lot of steel and being made from the same maker and being shot in the same conditions. This is the only way to get good results but who has the time, money etc...to do this? This is the hard part.
Check out the thread records fall at Sacramento. Craig St.Clair shot a 1-8 twist, 4 groove, .237 bore at 600 yards chambered in 6BR. He won 7 out of 8 awards and has 2 pending records. It was smithed by Stu Harvey.
In the end to me it is more of the quality of the barrel blank. The straighter the barrel, the more uniform the bore and groove dimensions, and the more uniform the twist the more forgiving the barrel is going to be. The nicer the finish inside the less fouling it will have etc....
Keep in mind there are alot of variables beyond the barrel maker and gunsmiths control and even the shooters control. What chamber reamer was used. Different lot of bullets from one to the next, different lot of powders, primers, cases etc...all effect different things. Why is one barrel faster than one vs. another. Why does one barrel that looks glassy smooth foul bad and it shouldn't etc................
Talk to you all later, Frank @ Bartlein Barrels
frankgreen, Jan 10, 2008

[lancetkenyon]

Rock Creek will spiral flute a barrel for you too. My .300RUM wears a spiral fluted Rock Creek. Shoots in the .3s all day, in the .1s on occasion when the stars line up.

 

[L Cazador]

That was great article that Green did and a lot of experience demonstrated in doing so. And the barrel maker that buys the biggest lots of steel isss Krieger not Bartlein. Frank Green mentions blank quality!! The bigger the lot the more consistent the barrel steel is going to be. I don't buy anything but Krieger cut rifle barrels. Yes they have 5R barrels and yes I have bought them but they don't clean easier or achieve any higher velocity. One thing we experimented with years ago in benchrest competition was gain twist or rachet twist barrels. I found no validity to higher velocity for those barrels either. Like Frank says there is no explanation why some barrels shoot much faster or slower or clean easier than others.

[300RUM]

Rock Creek will spiral flute a barrel for you too. My .300RUM wears a spiral fluted Rock Creek. Shoots in the .3s all day, in the .1s on occasion when the stars line up.

Thank you for the suggestion. It is always nice to have options.