Whodathunkit?

[Outdoor Writer]

The argument is, if lead bullets are killing the Condors then why aren't they also killing the other scavengers? We should be having a die off of all scavengers that reside in heavily hunted areas, including coyotes, but know one has claimed it to be....YET. I don't think the lead bullets are selectively killing the condors and not the others.

 

Next up, they will be telling us that wolves have died after eating gut piles and the no lead ban spread to the Apache Sitgreaves and Gila. Then it will be that black bears are dieing off from eating bullets...etc....etc....etc. There is an agenda here they are using the Condors as their "poster-bird".

 

I have little doubt about the Commision will be caving to them though. They are already going to change the laws regarding salt/mineral licks, and no one is even complaining about it.

 

Because mammals have different digestive systems than those of the avian creatures, it take much more lead to enter their blood streams, which is where it needs to get to be lethal. That's why people can go through life with a bullet or shotgun pellets embedded in their bodies. For the most part, the mammals eliminate most lead they might eat in their feces.

 

Birds, however, ingest it and then it sits in their gizzards where acids break it down and send it directly into the blood stream. This is also why lead shot was killing millions of waterfowl; they ingest it like they would small pebbles to aid digestion. They weren't dying because a hunter hit them with a few stray pellets or two.

 

Lastly, all the other critters do not have a hundred people constantly monitoring the movements, both visually and through radio telemetry. IOW, a sick condor is noted very quickly and caught for treatment. Some survive and others do not.

 

I have no doubt lead poisoning kills other scavenger type birds and perhaps even a few mammals over time. The latter would be more affected by tiny particles that might be easily acted on by the stomach acids. It would take quite a bit to kill them, however. But there's an awful lot of country out there where they can curl up and die, and of course eventually disappear -- ashes to ashes, dirt to dirt, so to speak.

[.270]

anyone that can read knows that lead isn't a good thing to have in you. it can cause real severe health problems to any animal. up to and including death. i don't have any doubt that some condors have experieinced lead poisoning. i do doubt that bullets are the cause, and flat out call anyone who goes along with the usfws and the other hugger groups that are behind these suits, liars. lead is everywhere. prove it comes from bullets and prove they weren't planted. i read some of the report that was put on this thread. lab simulations are usually slanted to get slanted results. so you fed some buzzards bb sized lead. conitnually. for days. they got lead poisoning. duh? now go chunk one bullet out in the countryside and see if a condor finds it. that's the kind of odds we're talking about. i'd have to bet that at least 50% of bullets stay in the deer somewhere. another good bunch of em pass through and land who knows where. very dang few stay in the guts. very few. guts ain't a good bullet trap. now figure the percentages and tell me how a few bullets are causing all this. the odds are real low. now how much lead is in the condor environment from other sources? paint, exhaust, trash, naturally, etc. where's the most possibility for exposure? it may be an extreme view, but it wouldn't surprise me if they are intentionally putting lead in their food in order to further their cause. sort of a condor/munchausen syndrome. these jokers have phonied up every study they've ever done and have been caught at it so many times they shouldn't have any credibility with anyone with a brain and dang sure not with an outdoorsman. Lark.

[Non-Typical Solutions]

Back in the early 80's my dad was in the thick of raising alot of pigs, and everything you ate caused cancer is some way or another, the report came out that bacon could in fact cause cancer(in rats). It later went on to explain the amount of bacon that was fed to the rats which in turn caused the cancer to appear in the rats.

 

If you were to go ahead and do a pound for pound comparison, transfering the weight of the bacon fed, to the weight of the rat eating the bacon, a human would in turn have to have eaten approximately 686 pounds of bacon per day, every day for 3 years.

 

dang I say, we ate alot of bacon back in those days, but I am telling you, 686 pounds of bacon in one day by itself would have killed me, forget the cancer.

 

I have no doubt that the testing on this lead business is slanted tremendously in favor of the condor. They ain't getting enough lead from a gutshot animal to kill them.

[Outdoor Writer]

Actually, Lark, I would guess they let the condors play with toys and eat foods imported from China.

 

Just beware of those black helicopers flying near your place. -TONY

[.270]

say what you want tony. name one high profile endangered species study, transplant, relocation, reintroduction, whatever, that the usfws or some of their cronies or contractors haven't been caught altering, planting, removing, or phonieing up data. just one. you can't. from the lynx hair planting, to flying camo'd up usfws agents into private land with helicopters to remove wolves they swore were not there to the garbage data collection they've used on gosshawk and spotted owl studies to the crap they've pulled with the wolf/dogs in Az. and new mex, the folks in charge of this stuff have no reason to expect intelligent, informed people to believe em. they've been caught so many times that the have no credibility with me. if you want to believe em go ahead. but don't expect anyone that can form his own opinions to line up with em. right now, just in Az., we are in real danger of losing about half of the huntable land in this state to the "california" condors and wolf/dogs. that is a real and true danger. next thing will be the jaguar. then it will be some snail or frog or whatever. you can call me what you want tony. but i ain't stupid and i can add 2+2 and get 4 every time. Lark.

[Outdoor Writer]

.. but don't expect anyone that can form his own opinions to line up with em.

 

 

Opinions are good! You know what they say about them. -TONY

[Pass'n through]

I wondered if anyone would bring this up. Tony makes a great point about the birds digestive system. One thing no one has brought up is the fact that Bald Eagles are all around now and have been studied extensively for years. Continue to be studied, but the lead issue has never been a factor except for Condors. Hard to believe it wouldnt have caused a lot of these Eagles to become sick. Everytime I have been on a hunt in units 7, 9, 10, 8 I have seen Eagles eating the gut piles of elk or deer, etc. Why has this not been a factor for them, must be immune to lead. Amazing how quick we are to pass another feel good law!

[Outdoor Writer]

I wondered if anyone would bring this up. Tony makes a great point about the birds digestive system. One thing no one has brought up is the fact that Bald Eagles are all around now and have been studied extensively for years. Continue to be studied, but the lead issue has never been a factor except for Condors. Hard to believe it wouldnt have caused a lot of these Eagles to become sick. Everytime I have been on a hunt in units 7, 9, 10, 8 I have seen Eagles eating the gut piles of elk or deer, etc. Why has this not been a factor for them, must be immune to lead. Amazing how quick we are to pass another feel good law!

 

See the other point I made about the constant monitoring the condors get. The eagles -- especially the scavenger goldens -- get little attention in that regard. Thus like most of the other critters, there's little concrete data recorded.

 

It's no different than when they radio collar wolves and such. They know immediately how to locate it and also know when the animal is no longer moving and is probably dead. -TONY

[Red Rabbit]

CRS disorder.

I think the old toothpaste tubes we grew up with used to be lead layered. Recall that was a source of lead foil to weight tied flies. Heck, I can't remember, but I don't have any cavitites.