Whodathunkit?

[wetmule]

Just got an e-mail from SCI stating that the Center for Biological Diversity along with the Sierra Club is petitioning the AZGFD for a ban on all lead ammo in AZ.

According to the e-mail the Dept. has not responded and the above groups have not ruled out litigation. I see another lawsuit round the bend and with the AZGFD's poor history of successful litigation ..............this will be another ugly one IMO.

[DesertBull]

Just got an e-mail from SCI stating that the Center for Biological Diversity along with the Sierra Club is petitioning the AZGFD for a ban on all lead ammo in AZ.

According to the e-mail the Dept. has not responded and the above groups have not ruled out litigation. I see another lawsuit round the bend and with the AZGFD's poor history of successful litigation ..............this will be another ugly one IMO.

 

 

I would like to give them all of my lead bullets. One at a time.

[TLH]

I am sure there will be a few groups fight back on this one. I understand the need to keep it lead free near the Bab where the Condors are at but the rest of the state is free of Condors. The Center are a bunch of greenies who try to make hunters pay for everything--they also would like to see all ranchers leave the state--they think with their emotions and with zero scientific research--the Sierra Club are in the same boat now.

 

I hope all of us hunters and shooters in this state stand up and raise some heck against these groups.

[.270]

poor condors. i wonder if it is being backed by barnes? seriously, the forest circus and national park circus painted everything they could for 50 years with lead paint. all the steel they had anywhere. handrails, dumpsters, everything. all they did was paint over it with non-lead paint. the lead is still there. cars dump lead out the tailpipe, and yes, even the ones running unleaded fuel have lead in the emmissions. motor oil has lead in it. and all the dead carcasses of roadkill get contaminated with it. so do all the plants along the road. back east, it was common practice for years to cut and bale the grass along the highways and in the medians and sell it to feedlots. until somebody found out the lead content in the grass was sky high. there is lead everywhere. there is lead everywhere the condors live, and it ain't bullets, but now it's all the fault of hunter's and their gutpiles. it's just a convenient arguement and when you have guys willing to go along with it without questioning it, it's dangerous. there was a lot of discussion about this a couple weeks ago and from what i read, most guys on this site were all for the bullet ban. don't drink the koolaid. make em clean all the other lead up. make em prove where it comes from. make em tell the truth. realistically, bullets don't even come into the equation. there just ain't that much exposure to em. and if it follows suit with the recent california legislation, they even banned copper bullets, because they are supposed to have lead traces in them. lead is everywhere. it's a naturally occuring metal and it has been used as an additive in countless things for decades. now all the sudden the few gutpiles found by the condors are all superfund sites? KMA!!! even if a better substitute for lead that was edible and made condors healthy were discovered, it would be outlawed. again, don't drink the koolaid. it's all part of the big plan to outlaw hunting. and anyone that lines up with these lead ban leaders ain't your friend. this ain't a joke. it is real and it is here. Lark.

[azpackhorse]

Lark is dead on with this one I beleive, give an inch,lose a mile. Welcome to Kalifornia boys and girls, next thing you know we'll have a movie star govenor.

 

Where are all of the dead Turkey Vultures? They should be just as dead as the Condors shouldn't they?

[billrquimby]

Again, I cannot disagree with anything Lark has said about this.

 

AZpackhorse is right on, too. In addition to turkey vultures, we'd be knee-deep in dead bluejays, coyotes, foxes, skunks, etc., etc. after every deer hunt if lead bullets in gut piles were a significant toxic agent.

 

Bill Quimby

[NRS]

Never mind what the environmentalist say about the condors, think about your families. After I saw this study, I was sold on using the Barnes bullet (besides everything I have shot with them has died quickly). Take a good look at the table at the beginning for the numbers of lead fragments left in the carcasses after they had been gutted. A lot will be removed when you cut up the meat, but the rest will be what you and your families will be eating.

 

http://www.peregrinefund.org/pdfs/Research...radiographs.pdf

 

And no, I do not work for a bullet manufacturing company.

[robert]

You didn't see it coming? There are people who are so dead set against being told what bullets to use on the Kaibab that now you are going to have a fight the flippen greenies. You've given these wackos a battle cry!!! You like to point out that there are hunters that are for this, well all I was trying to say was that it would be nice to avoid a fight. Well that didn't happen and now look at the crap in california, they are saying that even pure copper bullets contain lead and will take away all rifle hunting. You wanted the fight and now you have it (one which hunters did not win in the republic of california), I hope we win it here! Regardless if you thought the condor thing was BS or not, if we had complied willingly a couple of years ago, maybe we could have avoided this, maybe not, I don't know. Maybe it was a conspiracy with Barnes, I just hope they have it worked out to where they don't get banned also (like in california). I guess your right lead is every where, but you have to realize it is a hot issue, look at how everyone reacted to all the lead paint toys coming from China. So I guess we have this whole situation to blame on the "Eco Hunters" that were in favor of using non lead on the Kaibab, we gave them an inch, now they want a mile.....yeah right. These idiots are always going to fight us over something, now they have an issue that they can do a lot of damage with. I just hope our Governor has more sense than the one in the R.O.C.

Robert

[.270]

nrs, spit out the koolaid dude. i've had a chunk of lead in my shoulder for decades. why don't i have lead poisoning? and there are thousands of folks out there with more lead in em than me. lead is dangerous. all heavy metals are. but it has to be in almost a molecular form to be dangerous. go swallow a bullet. it'll hit the toilet water tomorrow and you'll be ok. birds are a little different because of their gizzard that grinds up their food and if a bullet gets lodged in their gizzard it could be hard on a condor. and a condor ain't gonna let a bullet stay in it's gizzard. ever dress a turkey gizzard, or any other bird. only thing in it are very small rocks, just a little larger than sand. they don't put big rocks, the size of bullets in their gizzard. they are simply too big. but condors do? i don't think so. there is lead everywhere. and all the sudden it only affects condors and it only comes from bullets? i don't buy it. in fact, i think it is a lie and the folks that are perpetrating it know it's a lie, and not only is it a lie, it is a lie that has been conspired. but it's the most convenient thing they have now to further the koolaid drinkin' phylosiphy. don't bite on this guys. there's a lot more to it than a few bullets in gut piles. these glorified buzzards probably are dieing of lead poisoning, but i'm thinking it is coming from somewhere else and that somewhere probably originates from the same outfits that are behind the ban and they are looking for a place to lay the blame, other than themselves. i shot a deer the other day. i didn't gut shoot it and the bullet went all the way through it. i suspect this is the case with almost every deer or elk killed in condor country. the bullet passes through or stays in the meat somewhere. but all the sudden the very few bullets that do stay in the gutpile are killing the condors? better look at roadkill and the paint in the parks and a few other places. sorry, i don't buy it. only way a bullet is dangerous to anything is when it is fired out of a gun. Lark.

[NRS]

Lark,

I appreciate your concern for my health, I have not drank any of the sugary kind in over 40 years, and that kind from Colorado gives me headaches. (besides I like the darker stuff that has some body to it) Having studied and worked as a biologist ever since shortly after I stopped drinking the sugar filled Koolaid, I am very aware of the biochemical pathways that occur when lead is ingested into the human body, or any other living body for that matter. All I am saying is that if you look at some of the x-rays in the study, you will see more than 100 tiny lead fragments in some of the carcasses AFTER the guts were removed.

 

" the bullet passes through or stays in the meat somewhere"

 

Its the parts that stay in the meat somewhere that I worry about and dont want my 6 year old son ingesting.

 

Dont get me wrong, I still use lead bullets in my muzzleloader.

[DesertBull]

Yeah, that's what they want us to do...bend over and take in the shorts...without a fight. Just like the global whining...errr I mean global warming fruitcakes.

[SilentButDeadly]

Click here for study on Turkey Vultures vs Lead BB's: http://www.jwildlifedis.org/cgi/reprint/39/1/96.pdf

 

For those who don't like reading scientific publications - the birds that got fed the most lead died, the ones that got fed moderate amounts of lead got sick and weak, the birds with no lead were fine.

 

The number of birds in the study was small, only 8 animals, but it did show that lead affects these creatures, as it does all animals (you can type in 'lead poisoning' and google it yourself).

 

The science is on the side of the birds - which means lead bullets will ultimately lose in court, that is just how it is.

[ultramag]

lead bullets also kill coues deer.lol

[Red Rabbit]

This was from B&C website (sim to what was said above from SCI):

 

The Next Lead Battle

October 30, 2007

By

Outdoor Wire

Arizona animal advocates are now pushing the Arizona Game and Fish Commission to issue a ban on lead ammo. The Center for Biological Diversity, now says with the California law on the books, Arizona becomes "the next step in our campaign." Arizona officials haven't responded, and one source says they don't plan to. In response, Sandy Bahr, the Sierra Club's Grand Canyon chapter spokesperson, told the Arizona Republic the Sierra Club will formally petition the commissioner by early November if they don't get a response. Bahr also says they have not ruled out litigation. In the meanwhile, Arizona isn't ignoring lead ammunition. The state issues coupons lead-free ammunition for those hunting in condor territory, and continues an education program to educate hunters of the threat lead poses to condors.

[DesertBull]

Click here for study on Turkey Vultures vs Lead BB's: http://www.jwildlifedis.org/cgi/reprint/39/1/96.pdf

 

For those who don't like reading scientific publications - the birds that got fed the most lead died, the ones that got fed moderate amounts of lead got sick and weak, the birds with no lead were fine.

 

The number of birds in the study was small, only 8 animals, but it did show that lead affects these creatures, as it does all animals (you can type in 'lead poisoning' and google it yourself).

 

The science is on the side of the birds - which means lead bullets will ultimately lose in court, that is just how it is.

 

 

The argument is, if lead bullets are killing the Condors then why aren't they also killing the other scavengers? We should be having a die off of all scavengers that reside in heavily hunted areas, including coyotes, but know one has claimed it to be....YET. I don't think the lead bullets are selectively killing the condors and not the others.

 

Next up, they will be telling us that wolves have died after eating gut piles and the no lead ban spread to the Apache Sitgreaves and Gila. Then it will be that black bears are dieing off from eating bullets...etc....etc....etc. There is an agenda here they are using the Condors as their "poster-bird".

 

I have little doubt about the Commision will be caving to them though. They are already going to change the laws regarding salt/mineral licks, and no one is even complaining about it.