Condors vs NRA

[.270]

might not be the best example, but i've had a piece of lead in my shoulder for about 35 years. i don't have lead poisoning. why is that? i know a lot of guys with a lot more lead in them than that. why can't a big buzzard with the digestive to handle about anything nasty, not be able to handle a little lead in it for a day or so? it ain't like the bullet stays in em. they pass it. good night, buzzards pass stuff through em so fast it ain't funny. there is no way that they are finding that many gutpiles that still have a bullet in them. how many gutshot deer have you seen that bullet didn't pass through? now, how may of these bullet contaminated gut piles are there that the condors are finding? especially when by the condor folks own words, one of the biggest problems they have is getting them to leave civlization and live wild. if it is lead poisoning, they're getting it someplace else. that's what needs to be addressed. it all sounds bogus to me. i remember reading about lead poisoning in the condors years ago. then it seemed like they blamed it on feeding them poached animals. i don't recall anything about gut piles. the whole story seems to vague and the conditions too happenstance to me. i've read several articles about them getting sick on the garbage at the south rim, where they like to hang out. never even heard of anyone seeing one on the north rim other than at the campgrounds. there's a lotta guys on here who hunt kaibab. norht and south. how many of you have ever seen one? they aren't going to leave where they're getting fed. whatever the deal is, there a lot more important things to worry about than these things. only reason they are in Az. is because the azgfd wanted the money to administer the program and they say there are prehistoric condor bones in caves in the grand canyon. they don't know if they are california condors or not, but they're supposed to be some kinda condor. oh yeah, i forgot, and because some guy said he saw one by williams, in the '30's. there's some real factual data for ya. the only way a wild animal can survive is to be wild. you can pamper and pet one all you want and unless it is in the cards for them to survive, they won't. they used to thrive in california, but they polluted the state to the point that eggshells wouldn't hold up. now they're someone else's problem. this is how california handles everything. if they need power, they get another state to build a powerplant and let them use their water and take care of the emmissions. if they need water, they steal it from another state. if they need someone to babysit buzzards, they contract it out. the reason they basically gave up on california is because even a buzzard can't survive in that cesspool. and watch, they're gonna ruin hunting on the kaibab over it. between them and the ferets. it's a shame for any animal to dissappear. but if you're gonna save one you have to start while there are still enough of em that they have a chance and you don't end up with an inbred population that isn't wild. these high dollar endagered species recovery programs are not to help the species recover, they're to use as a tool to pry the public off of the land. sorta like the "wolves". Lark.

[SilentButDeadly]

might not be the best example, but i've had a piece of lead in my shoulder for about 35 years. i don't have lead poisoning. why is that?

 

http://www.thedoctorwillseeyounow.com/arti.../other/lead_31/

 

It looks like unless the lead dissolves into your blood stream you should be fine - but you are at a higher risk of poisoning.

[.270]

apparantly, but i know a lotta guys who have lead in them, and none of them have lead poisoning. we're talking two vastly different animals, although in my case some might argue contrary. but i don't see how an animal can have a bullet in it for a few hours and get poisoned and another animal can pack one around for decades and not. and add that it is stuffed directly into the bloodstream. i think they are getting it somewhere else and want to blame it on hunter's bullets. it's too easy. it takes very little lead to cause lead poisoning. an amount much smaller than a .22 bullet spread out in a body can kill. adn from what i've read, it's lead microbes that are dangerous, not lead chunks. lead fine enough to be airborn. i don't see how i can pack around a big chunk, in my blood, and not get it, and a buzzard have a piece bounce through his intestine for a day or so, can. the whole endangered species program is bogus. there have been many successes. bald eagles, perigrin falcons, montana grizzlies, the canadien wolves in the northwestern states, the trumpeter swans to some extent. heck, the eastern whitetail deer is probably one of the most successfull stories and it was never even listed. folks saw the problem and fixed it. but when there is a success, like with the grizzlies and canadien wolves, when they are fixed up, they won't let go and let them be managed. because managed means hunted. they don't want to let go of that control. and it isn't the control of a particular species they're worried about. they don't want to lose control of the land, public and private. they don't want to lose control of the people. that's the gov't way. there have been so many lies perpetrated buy endangered species fanatics that i have no trust in them. the mexican wolf is extinct. has been for decades. and we never had very many here anyway. they were considered transients. the mexicans wiped em out and now we're trying to introduce some wolf/dog cross in country they hardly ever lived in to start with. the mexican spotted owl (does the origin country here start to ring a bell?) in the u.s. has always been considered to be transient by true scientists. but when some huggers found out there weren't very many, or were none in some places, the destroyed a lot of lives over them. even tho there never were enough of em to be more than a novelty anyway. they seem to be doing ok in mexico. but not on the kaibab. which is a little way from mexico. there isn't enough attention paid to experience and too much attention paid to theories supplied by folks with no experience for the endangered species programs to be credible. look at the guys who faked the linx studies. took hair from a mounted linx in a museum and planted it in an area with no linx, in order to further their cause. they got caught. and what happened to em? they actually got promotions and bonuses. until their is real data on this condor deal, i don't buy it. it's too easy to fake. and i suspect that may be what's going on here. Lark.

[Outdoor Writer]

Lark,

 

You might want to read up a bit on how avian critters get lead poisoning. It isn't from having lead embedded in their flesh, as yours is. The problem is more related to INGESTING lead FRAGMENTS, i.e. when bullets come apart in game animals or leave fragments behind, even with pass-throughs. Once a lead shot, bullet or fragments reach the GIZZARD -- an organ unique to avian species -- the acids there dissolve that lead, thus allowing it to easily enter the bloodstream and tissues. That doesn't happen in your shoulder.

 

Plus, wounded deer also die without being found, so it isn't just gut-piled related bullets or fragments that are a concern.

 

Here's some accurate information on the condor problem. Be sure to click on the red X-Ray link to see the extent of bullet fragmentation that occurs. -TONY

[billrquimby]

Bill,

The Barnes TSX are probably the best known non-lead bullet. They are 100% copper. They retain 100% of their weight, giving great penetration. They offer a 53 grain TSX in 22 caliber that would be good on peccaries.

http://www.barnesbullets.com/

Barnes also has a more expensive MRX bullet with a polymer tip and tungsten core.

http://barnesbullets.com/products/rifle/mrx-bullet/

 

Nosler is introducing its E-tip bullet which has a polymer tip and is made of copper gilding metal. They just released the first ones in 180 grain 30 caliber.

http://nosler.com/index.php?p=3&bullet=20

 

Here are links to expansion/penetration tests of various bullets.

http://www.gunsandhunting.com/bulletshootout.html

http://www.seahook.com/bestbullet.jpg

 

Hope this helps.

 

Doug~RR

 

Thanks. Penetration is just one factor in humanely killing an animl, though. Otherwise we'd be using military ball ammo in our .308s and .30-06s. I shot 10-15 springbok in South Africa on a cull about ten years ago using South African made .243 "solids" (actually fully copper encased lead bullets) and drilled small holes clear through every one of these 50-pound antelopes that I hit, no matter tha angle. The only instant kills came came when I and other shooters broke a spine or neck. Springbok hit elsewhere ran from 30 to 150 yards before dropping. Thankfully the farm was near Kimberley, which is open country, and we had no problem finding them.

 

Bill Quimby

[billrquimby]

Bill,

The Barnes TSX are probably the best known non-lead bullet. They are 100% copper. They retain 100% of their weight, giving great penetration. They offer a 53 grain TSX in 22 caliber that would be good on peccaries.

http://www.barnesbullets.com/

Barnes also has a more expensive MRX bullet with a polymer tip and tungsten core.

http://barnesbullets.com/products/rifle/mrx-bullet/

 

Nosler is introducing its E-tip bullet which has a polymer tip and is made of copper gilding metal. They just released the first ones in 180 grain 30 caliber.

http://nosler.com/index.php?p=3&bullet=20

 

Here are links to expansion/penetration tests of various bullets.

http://www.gunsandhunting.com/bulletshootout.html

http://www.seahook.com/bestbullet.jpg

 

Hope this helps.

 

Doug~RR

 

Thanks. Penetration is just one factor in humanely killing an animl, though. Otherwise we'd be using military ball ammo in our .308s and .30-06s. I shot 10-15 springbok in South Africa on a cull about ten years ago using South African made .243 "solids" (actually fully copper encased lead bullets) and drilled small holes clear through every one of these 50-pound antelopes that I hit, no matter tha angle. The only instant kills came came when I and other shooters broke a spine or neck. Springbok hit elsewhere ran from 30 to 150 yards before dropping. Thankfully the farm was near Kimberley, which is open country, and we had no problem finding them.

 

Bill Quimby

[NRS]

I still don't know what these non-lead bullets are made of. If you get full-body penetration from end to end at 50 yards on a Coues deer and side-to-side on a sheep at 300 yards it means they're not expanding much.

 

Whatever it is, I'd like to have some in .22 caliber for my .22/250. They sound for for coyotes, bobcats, and javelina. They shouldn't tear things up too much. I don't want them for an elk, though.

 

 

The Barnes STX are a controlled expansion bullet. The one on on the deer expanded to about double diameter with the the petals remaining intact except the one that broke off on a bone. The one on the sheep left a decent sized exit hole, about what you would expect from a lead .270 bullet

[SilentButDeadly]

the mexican wolf is extinct. has been for decades. and we never had very many here anyway. they were considered transients. the mexicans wiped em out and now we're trying to introduce some wolf/dog cross in country they hardly ever lived in to start with. the mexican spotted owl (does the origin country here start to ring a bell?) in the u.s. has always been considered to be transient by true scientists.

 

I got into a rippin argument with my father-in-law about mexican wolves, (he's anti-wolf, I'm on the fence) I'm still queasy thinking about it, anyway, I have a little experience with spotted owls from my firefighting days over in Saguaro NP.

 

The prescribed burning program up in the Rincons has to jump through hoops to get permits to burn because of the owls. In the fall of 2002 we did an RX burn on top of Mica mountain, and EXCLUDED the owl PAC and Core areas because we didn't want to burn down their nesting trees... Summer 2003 we have the Aspen and Helen's 2 fires start the same day, Aspen burns down Summerhaven, Helen's 2 burns down the Owl PAC that we excluded in the RX - the areas that we included in the RX have low intensity fire with little to no mortality of trees. So now the owls have no place to live because their nesting area is a bunch of burned match sticks. Summer 2004 the researchers come out to check on the owls - they are still hanging out in the burned area - and guess what? THEY HAVE DOUBLE CLUTCHED (ie 2 SETS OF CHICKS) FOR THE SUMMER!!! Apparently the owls love the fact that the fire has increased the productivity of leafy plants and grasses, and therefore the rodent population across the top of the mountain.

 

Anyway, 2007 and Saguaro still has not had an honest Wildfire Use Fire (fire that they let burn for resource benefit), mainly due to the fact that the local Fire folks can't get a permit from the Gov't to allow burning due to the ESA and the owls... What is more important the endangered species or the entire ecosystem? You be the judge - I'll bet it won't take 5 years for you to decide (like the Feds).

 

 

ps. if you've never hiked the top of the Rincons, I suggest you do - its the only place in the world where you can watch Coue's at 15 yards all day long (@ Manning Cabin), I've tried to slap them on the butt - got pretty close a couple times but they are still Coues....

[.270]

my position is that the usfw and other outfits that administer the endangered species act have been caught in so many lies, coverups, distortions, half truths, evidence tampering, evidence planting, evidence removal, etc., that i don't believe ANYTHING they say. and when an animal does recover, they cry like heck trying to keep it on the list. look at alligators. they hunt a few of em but they are a literal pain in the butt now. it's a good thing too, because they were really in sad shape at one time. but they need to be managed more, but can't because of the federal crap. same with the wolves in montana, wyoming and idaho. they've done better than they ever hoped for but don't ask to manage em. hands off. bald eagles too. they've recovered remarkably the usfw fought like heck to keep em from being delisted. it takes money out of their budgets. they can't hire as many realitives to work on their little projects. the whole thing stinks. not just the condor deal. i don't see anyway that so many of these dumpster divers get away from easy feed often enough to find a gutpile that still has a bullet in it and eat it, get the bullet or bullet fragments lodged in their gizzard or wherever else, and end up with lead poisoning. why doesn't every eagle, vulture, raven, hawk, owl, coyote, etc., have lead poisoning? this whole thing is too vague and the chances of it happening time and time again are too minimal. it wouldn not surprise me one bit if it is some sort of endangered species munchhausen's syndrome crap where they are doing in order to further their cause. all it is is a long range ploy to outlaw hunting. the last thing endangered species folks want is for and endangered species to become unedangered because saving the endangered species is not the primary focus of what they do. the primary focus is to drive us off the land and to outlaw hunting. and fishing. and guns. and anything else that they find "unethical". folks can drink the koolaid if they want. not me. this should be californias problem, not ours. any time bueraucrats are involved, something stinks. Lark.

[Outdoor Writer]

In reality, lead poisoning is quite widespread in terrestial birds (that's the non-waterfowl kind for the unscientific types) and has been well documented in more than 60 species, including both American eagle species, all raptors and yes, ravens, too. Many of these terrestial species are susceptable in two way -- either by ingesting the lead fragments while feeding on game carcasses or entrails or by picking up lead shot when they do their normal pecking for small stones or gravel to aid digestion. Pheasants, quail, chukars and wild turkeys have all suffered from lead poisoning as a result of the latter.

 

The difference between the documentation between such birds and the highly controlled condor is the ability to KNOW when the poisoning or deaths occur. Obviously, the condors are closely monitored, which includes radios, etc. Eagles, raptors or other terrestial birds are happenstance discoveries, however. Thus, the magnitude of lead poisoning losses for individual terrestial species is difficult to quantify.

 

As for knowing how the condors are ingesting lead from bullets and not trash, it's pretty simple. Those who know what they're doing can match lead types exactly by the particular isotopes in specific leads, including those used in shot and bullets. -TONY