Condors vs NRA

[SilentButDeadly]

I just read an article about California Condors suffering from lead poisoning and whether the Governator is going to do something about it. link: http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/09/22/condors/

 

Apparently the NRA is opposed to any laws which make using lead ammunition illegal, so are they the bad guys?

 

What is the big deal? As a sportsman I can't see how using non-lead ammunition (or at the least burying the gut pile) is all that much of a problem if it is going to keep these condors from dying.

 

Is it the fear of a ban on hunting that is causing all of the political lobby, or is it corporations who don't want it to take a bite out of their sales revenue?

 

It seems to me this is an easily resolved problem that does not affect hunting in any way - use non-lead ammo, or bury your gut pile in areas that have condors.

 

AZ G&F has already issued a statement about this: http://www.gf.state.az.us/w_c/california_condor_lead.shtml

[robert]

I'd have to agree. Last year my uncle and I were up by Marble Canyon and started talking to a guy that was tracking condors that had been collared. He was explaning that lead was the biggest problem that they were facing. Not at any point did he come across as anti-hunter, and we hadn't even revealed to him that we were hunters. He was just explaining the problem and giving a solution. As I remember at one point he mentioned that in some cases his orginization would actually trade a box of non-lead bullets for a box of leaded ones. I know that all copper bullets are more expensive, but it is not like they are an inferior product. I know for alot of my gear I am willing to spend a little more if it will perform better. I feel the same way about bullets, if there preformance is good and they won't poison some birds, thats two checks in the plus column for me (and I think having either one of the benefits would be enough for me to spend a few extra bucks).

[billrquimby]

As I remember at one point he mentioned that in some cases his orginization would actually trade a box of non-lead bullets for a box of leaded ones. I know that all copper bullets are more expensive, but it is not like they are an inferior product.

 

Do you mean his organization would trade steel shot shotgun shells for those loaded with lead? My ignorance may be showing, but I can't imagine anyone providing non-lead bullets for all calibers of centerfire rifles, to say nothing about .22 rimfires. What would the non-lead bullets be made of? Solid copper weighs considerably less than lead and does not expand like lead.

 

Bill Quimby

[robert]

Yeah I don't think their goal was to replace every caliber. I just remember him saying that they had done it in some instances, and I don't remember the name of the organization either. I thought it was an example of showing cooperation between them and hunters rather than an opposition to hunting.

 

I guess I was just thinking idealistically, and that it would be nice if we could take care of a problem before it got to big. That way we could avoid a fight over banning ammunition, and having antis cry foul (no pun intended).

 

Also I do think that Barnes (and from what I have read the new E-Tip) have shown to be effective on big game.

[Huntn coues]

What type of bullets was AZGFD handing out for all these Kaibab hunts. I know there were several people on CW

that got em.

 

Any idea on the performance?

[bobbyo]

We could use silver bullets like the Lone Ranger.

Bob

[DesertBull]

Wouldn't be ironic if we found out that Condors ate Spotted Owls?

[NRS]

What type of bullets was AZGFD handing out for all these Kaibab hunts. I know there were several people on CW

that got em.

 

Any idea on the performance?

I have used these in my .270 for some years. Dropped my sheep with one shot through the chest at 300 yds. Went clear through him. Dropped a coues in his tracks last year at 50 yds with a texas heart shot. Recovered the bullet under the skin on the other end, it stayed together pretty well.

[.270]

the key word is "california". take em home and we won't have to worry about it. i really don't believe it. most of the condors hang around the south rim and live off of trash cans and stuff they are fed by the usfw. to say that folks shooting deer on kaibab is killing the condors is bs. if the huggers in california wouldn't have let their state get so stinkin' polluted then these big buzzards would still be ok there. too bad too, because they are a pretty neat bird. but this program is like most other usfw programs, stifled by paperwork and bs. for some reason biologists think that rules and regulations will save things. acting before things get bad saves things. not after. the condor population is so stressed, pampered and domesticated from all the handling by folks that they are never going to be more than a novelty, at best. Lark.

[Outdoor Writer]

I just read an article about California Condors suffering from lead poisoning and whether the Governator is going to do something about it. link: http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/09/22/condors/

 

If I recall, at least 12 condors in AZ alone have died from lead poisoning, and many others survived after being treated at the Phoeniz Zoo. -TONY

[Arizona Griz]

the condor population is so stressed, pampered and domesticated from all the handling by folks that they are never going to be more than a novelty, at best. Lark.

 

Get use to it because they are here to stay.

 

I guess the effort with the Whooping Crane was a novelty too.

[billrquimby]

What type of bullets was AZGFD handing out for all these Kaibab hunts. I know there were several people on CW

that got em.

 

Any idea on the performance?

I have used these in my .270 for some years. Dropped my sheep with one shot through the chest at 300 yds. Went clear through him. Dropped a coues in his tracks last year at 50 yds with a texas heart shot. Recovered the bullet under the skin on the other end, it stayed together pretty well.

 

 

I still don't know what these non-lead bullets are made of. If you get full-body penetration from end to end at 50 yards on a Coues deer and side-to-side on a sheep at 300 yards it means they're not expanding much.

 

Whatever it is, I'd like to have some in .22 caliber for my .22/250. They sound for for coyotes, bobcats, and javelina. They shouldn't tear things up too much. I don't want them for an elk, though.

 

Bill Quimby

[Red Rabbit]

Bill,

The Barnes TSX are probably the best known non-lead bullet. They are 100% copper. They retain 100% of their weight, giving great penetration. They offer a 53 grain TSX in 22 caliber that would be good on peccaries.

http://www.barnesbullets.com/

Barnes also has a more expensive MRX bullet with a polymer tip and tungsten core.

http://barnesbullets.com/products/rifle/mrx-bullet/

 

Nosler is introducing its E-tip bullet which has a polymer tip and is made of copper gilding metal. They just released the first ones in 180 grain 30 caliber.

http://nosler.com/index.php?p=3&bullet=20

 

Here are links to expansion/penetration tests of various bullets.

http://www.gunsandhunting.com/bulletshootout.html

http://www.seahook.com/bestbullet.jpg

 

Hope this helps.

 

Doug~RR

[mattys281]

It seems to me that everyone has known for decades now about the ill effects of lead on people & other animals (no lead-based paint, recent toy recalls, etc.), so why the heck does it take a few birds getting sick before people start to realize that maybe pumping the soil & subsequently our ground water, full of lead is a bad idea?

 

Larks right, this problem was identified along time ago & should have been handled by now.

[Outdoor Writer]

It seems to me that everyone has known for decades now about the ill effects of lead on people & other animals (no lead-based paint, recent toy recalls, etc.), so why the heck does it take a few birds getting sick before people start to realize that maybe pumping the soil & subsequently our ground water, full of lead is a bad idea?

 

Larks right, this problem was identified along time ago & should have been handled by now.

 

In reality, a large part of the lead problem in regards to hunting was addressed when the non-lead law for waterfowl became law in 1991. That happened after studies determined the lead shot was having ill effects on waterfowl.

 

In contrast, the condor situation is a fairly recent one, with the first death in AZ from lead poisoning documented in 1999. Until they were released into the wild, no one could have forecast how lead bullets used for deer hunting would affect them because there was no data to go on. Now the problem, including the cause and effects, is known and needs to be addressed, much like the lead shot ban or the DDT ban that helped the bald eagle recovery.

 

My guess is within a decade, all shot and bullets, regardless of what's HUNTED, will be of the non-lead types. Lead fishing weights might also disappear completely. -TONY