Unit 27 Schedule Change Outcome ?

[trphyhntr]

i would say that trail cams have 0% to do with the bull population in 27 and 1. maybe they help kill the biggest bulls but what does that have to do with the total population of elk?

[naturebob]

I agree that Camera's are butchering all species of Trophies................BOB!

[moche]

Trphyhntr has nothing to do with the total population of elk only the reduction in the 8-10 year old trophy category, once they are reduced to a minimum then the next age group will pay the price, to many tags given. if you increase the cow tags than you had better decrease the bull tags cause you only make bulls one way .Once depleted the wolves will shut the coffin door on the herd. just saying. I have seen NM do it in Unit 9, 10, 13 and 15 and it is happening in all the Gila Units, Trophy Quality has dropped drastically as have elk numbers. NM unit 9 was once full of trophy class elk. You would see herds with over 150 head on a regular basis. so what did game department do add a third Bull season and Three cow seasons. oh yea and give land owners over 300 tags. Now you can walk the public land in this unit for ten days and never see an elk. Sad, Sad situation. I figured AZ would do better than that but it looks like we are seeing the beginning of the same results NM now has if they do not change it quickly. It has become a big money game and the average working Joe is losing. The use of cameras for now gives the outfitter a chance to be a super hero and kill all these big bulls but I am noticing that the supply of trophy games animals is starting to shrink and the cycle is headed the other direction. Enjoy the dream now because without change it only becomes a camping trip. I am not bashing Outfitters as I have been a guide in the past just the types of tools that are being used buy them to kill those trophy bulls and other game animals.

[trphyhntr]

Trphyhntr has nothing to do with the total population of elk only the reduction in the 8-10 year old trophy category, once they are reduced to a minimum then the next age group will pay the price, to many tags given. if you increase the cow tags than you had better decrease the bull tags cause you only make bulls one way .Once depleted the wolves will shut the coffin door on the herd. just saying. I have seen NM do it in Unit 9, 10, 13 and 15 and it is happening in all the Gila Units, Trophy Quality has dropped drastically as have elk numbers. NM unit 9 was once full of trophy class elk. You would see herds with over 150 head on a regular basis. so what did game department do add a third Bull season and Three cow seasons. oh yea and give land owners over 300 tags. Now you can walk the public land in this unit for ten days and never see an elk. Sad, Sad situation. I figured AZ would do better than that but it looks like we are seeing the beginning of the same results NM now has if they do not change it quickly. It has become a big money game and the average working Joe is losing. The use of cameras for now gives the outfitter a chance to be a super hero and kill all these big bulls but I am noticing that the supply of trophy games animals is starting to shrink and the cycle is headed the other direction. Enjoy the dream now because without change it only becomes a camping trip. I am not bashing Outfitters as I have been a guide in the past just the types of tools that are being used buy them to kill those trophy bulls and other game animals.

Get some cameras and show us how easy it is to kill big Bulls with them

[Notime2hunt]

My buddy is brand new to CW and relitively new to the hunting world. He has been reading on these forumns and texting me about different topics and info he reads. The funniest thing i have seen in awhile was his first text to me said these words and I quote - "Boy this trphyhunter guy with the sheep for a picture starts sh** with everybody, seem to have an answer to all questions and a solution to all problems"

 

Trphynunter - Moche was just stating the reason why he believes the big bull numbers are down. Had nothing to do with him going to the field to show us anything. His opinion was a good one.

 

As cool guys like you say - "CHILL BRUH"

[trphyhntr]

My buddy is brand new to CW and relitively new to the hunting world. He has been reading on these forumns and texting me about different topics and info he reads. The funniest thing i have seen in awhile was his first text to me said these words and I quote - "Boy this trphyhunter guy with the sheep for a picture starts sh** with everybody, seem to have an answer to all questions and a solution to all problems"

 

Trphynunter - Moche was just stating the reason why he believes the big bull numbers are down. Had nothing to do with him going to the field to show us anything. His opinion was a good one.

 

As cool guys like you say - "CHILL BRUH"

 

 

i call them how i see them.

[Webber]

Arizona should take a page out of New Mexico rules and make some units primitive units only bow and muzzleloader with no long range rifles.

[Red Sparky]

The other thing that was not mentioned in NM Unit 9 was the land swap. Prime public hunting ground swapped for crap land and that prime land given to landowners. You also forgot to mention the private land owners herding elk off public land into private land. If I can find the picture I will post the bull I took in 2007 on public land in NM Unit 9.

 

 

[azbugler]

It's a phase thing too. What ever unit is the hot unit, will get hammered. 10 and 9 used to be hot, and have slipped over the last few years. Guides and hunters are getting more proficient. When they get in a unit that's hot they clean the old bulls out. Once it loses it's popularity, the bulls will come back within 4-6 years. The gene pool is still there, and the big bulls will be once again, but you have to give them time to grow. 23 is pretty hot right now, and it will probably see the same fate. But I do agree that tag numbers are getting a little out of control. I vote that they lower the amount of tags by 10-15% state wide, and raise the price of the tags to offset the $$$ they lose for several years until they get the numbers back in all units state wide.

I completely agree. At least they should set aside certain units for a quality hunt experience.

[Becker]

I actuay agree with trphyhntr that cameras have nothing to do with it. In fact I would rather guys be more successful at killing the older age class animals every year. That's part of the idea of a renewable resource. Taking out the older age classes. They replenish. Granted it's the smallest part of the population.....but if we all actually took out "OLD" animals it would make for some awesome trophy hunting. Regardless of score. Motion cameras aid in that by allowing people to know what is actually there and say "hey....I know this big old nasty bull is there and I'm not going to shoot the 340 youngster because I know 380 grandpa is out there." Another entire topic.

 

The fact of the matter though is that Game and Fish is counting on most people to take the animals that won't ever reach that "OLD" age class. If you do any research or know anything about population management and having a healthy herd you know that a large percentage of animals actually don't servive to reach "OLD". Between predation, simple survival of the fittest, etc., lots of animals won't make it. And let's face it human activity has a huge part of populations. Our ability to reduce predetors, provide water, and aid in population growth. They are really no different than cattle. We raise them in order to harvest them. It doesn't really hurt to take out a percentage of the animals that would naturally get killed or die before they even got there. Especially if we remove the predators.

 

If you talk with anyone serious about big "OLD" animals I think they would tell you you the exact same. Trophy hunting doesn't negatively effect the herd. Especially when "trophy" hunting is about age.

 

Now if everyone is strictly chasing those old animals and our Game and Fish is issueing too many tags it becomes a problem. I completely agree there.

 

I have yet to see valuable information on actual population numbers vs harvest data for elk in unit 27. I've seen the harvest data but not the other. AND I am not going to go the extra mile to dig it up because I could give two shits about elk. My ultimate guess and knowing what I see about elk being places they have never been when I was a 10 year old kid, and having a few elk tags over the years is that the elk population has become higher than what Game and Fish wants. Regardless of what anyone says on what they see today vs 20 years ago. Things change. What is the "ACTUAL" population of elk? Thusly I think G and F have put out more tags because the population has or had increased. With trophy hunting being more popular than ever people have been holding out. Older age class Bulls have taken a slight hit. People who want "big" but don't scout are suffering in finding the "OLD" Bulls resulting in less success. People meat hunting don't care so lots of elk are getting killed regardless of size. But that probably is G and F's goal. Reducing the population.

 

Granted I am doing some generalizations and not knowing the actual truths. But I know G and F would not survive if they didn't have animals to hunt. Everyone says they are about $ and maybe they are. They are a business in the end and wouldn't exist if they didn't have money coming in. I don't think they do an excellent job in managing wildlife but I don't think they are the worst that could be. I have had or been on elk hunts in unit 27 and unit 1 over the last 7 or 8 years and have not struggled in finding 350 plus bull elk and have had multiple friends that have had the tags and said the same. Sooooooo?

[Notime2hunt]

Becker - seems like your post contridicts itself. Obviously there are tons of hunters that are meat hunters(as you mentioned) and are not going to hold out for anything except the first elk that presents itself. SO we cant do anything at all about that, except educate hunters on age class and herd health. The part I think may slightly contradict itself is saying you dont think cameras have much impact. Most hunters that take the time to hang cameras, I assume are trophy hunters. Camera aids in finding the trophy and keeping tabs on the animal until opening day. How would that not affect the total number of quality bulls being killed? Not as many old bulls or 3-4 year solid bulls that would be monsters over the next few years. The elks odds go down. no 2 ways to look at that. So to say cameras have nothing to do with it - seems unrealistic. And seems more around a personal feeling for cameras than the facts of the topic.

[Becker]

Hypothetically.........which doesn't happen here but does on say Texas private ranches growing big deer.

 

If you only shoot the older age class it replenishes. It's renewable. If you put the age class in a pyramid diagram the bottom of the pyramid is 1 year olds the top portion are the oldest ones. If you wipe off the top it replenishes every year. If you wipe out the bottom it doesn't. If everyone trophy hunted and only shot the oldest animals you will be able to hunt old animals every year. So saying that people with trail cameras that are actually trophy hunting are hurting the amount of trophy animals doesn't make sense. Yes they kill them but they get replaced.

 

In reality it's the other way around. The people shooting the first thing with antlers meat hunting are hurting your high quality animals in a sense. Although some of those are irrelevant because they wouldn't have made it up to the top anyway. If you want to complain about trophy caliber animals you should be harping on the people who don't shoot old animals.

 

That's my point I guess. Game cameras help take the top tier that gets replaced. Again hypothetical because we all know all the other stuff in the middle. Too many tags. To many wolves. Etc etc. but perfect trophy world cameras don't hurt. 😜

[kwp]

Becker's example of a pyramid is a good way to look at it when the older age class are harvested at the top then replenished by the next generation. Harvesting the older age class (trophy hunting) is the best way to ensure the age class remains older.

 

I think it's fair to say that on most elk hunts, the majority of bulls harvested are in the 2-4 yr old range. If you look back at my previous post and harvest data, with the boom in bulls harvested in recent years, what I believe has happened is that a large percentage consisted of 2-4 yr old bulls. This narrowed the bottom and middle of the pyramid resulting in fewer bulls available to replace the older bulls harvested from the top of the pyramid.

 

There are still older (trophy) bulls in both 1&27 and if you scout and hunt hard they can be found. But my opinion is that there are fewer 4,5+ year old bulls now than there was 5,10,15 years ago.

[PackerMenges]

Just to add a little wrinkle to the thread here...imo, if g&f wanted to truly micro manage the herd in 27, they could split the unit into 3 or 4 different sub-units.

 

It is also of my opinion that to be consistently successful in unit 27, it takes a lot more than having strategically placed game cameras. Yes they can aid in locating bulls but I would venture to guess that camera finds equate to less than 10% of the big bulls killed on the late hunt with that correlation getting only slightly stronger for the early hunts. My reasoning is that once you start plugging in the x factors that effect an outcome, they simply begin to diminish any strong advantage a camera equates to... especially in this unit.

[Alpinebullwinkle]

would their pre burn population count even be as accurate as their post burn though? I'm sure they did see way more Bulls surveying flying over the burns than they did before right?

Or maybe they have other ways of surveying

Trophyhunter- the AZGFD used to take their surveys in February (pre-fire years) which I suspect was just as accurate as now with the improved sight clearance and elk remaining on top of the rim uncharacteristically post-fire years. Prior to the fire the natural habits for the elk was to migrate off the top of the rim to the snow line or lower. That changed due to the fire and the new growth that has sustained the elk uncharacteristically above the rim post-fire.