Draw for Archery Deer from now on....

[Huntn coues]

High Country Coues, did you actually imply that hunting pressure during the rut changes rutting habits and lessens the ability for mature buck to impregnant does. I made that same assumption a month ago and Outdoor Writer told me it had nothing to due with the decrease in the deer population in Arizona. He post interesting articles by Expert writers stating the water/rain conditions is the reason for the decline. I am also a believer in hunting during the rut HAS a direct effect on the ability for mature buck to spread those great genes.

 

Why does G&F allow hunting during the rut???

 

Why does G&F allow hunting within 500 yards of a water hole (archery or rifle)?????

 

Why does G&F allow placing perminent tree stands or ground blinds on public land?????

We have become our own worst enemies with websites like Coueswhitetail. We post pictures of game at water and salt. We argue over hunting rights at those water holes and salt licks on public land. Hunters seem to think putting up a tree stand or ground blind gives them exclusive right to a water hole or and area that they spread their salt. We advertize on this website every day the problems associated with our SPORT. Game and Fish doesn't have to hold meetings, ALL THEY HAVE TO DO IS READ OUR POSTS.

 

I learned a lot about Coues hunting from this website the first couple of years I monitored it, the last number of years I watched a decline in the quality of this websites posts. It's fun to brag about how much game is coming into a salt lick or water hole and post those neat photos, but there is always a consiqence (spelling check needed) for not keeping ourselves in check.

 

The single most important statement I continue to hear today is that we all need to attend those G&F meetings in large numbers. Maybe we can have a forum title G&F Meetings, put more effort in recruiting members to attend, and have a consolidated agenda with an articulate spokesperson that everyone supports at the meeting.

 

 

Why stop there?

 

Why not stop hunting with scoped rifles, Compound bows and limit binocs to 10x magnification. Make it illegal to shoot over 200 yards.

How about no shooting after 12:00pm to give the animals a chance to water and feed in the evening without pressure?

How about no camping in the forest. Get a motel or stay at the KOA?

Why are we hunting antelope and sheep at all? Their numbers are falling fast.

 

You are right, we are our own worst enemy, but not because of the hunting methods we choose, but because we are constantly putting each other down for the methods we choose.

 

Again, if you have a moral problem with these issues and choose not to use any or all of them, I applaud and respect you and your choices. Please do the same for others.

 

Well said DB

[crazy4COUES]

Not to sure I understand some G&F's decision making. I have never been a big G&F hater ether but some of you may remember me posting about Usery archery range closing. Well we had contacted G&F about this and they kept bringing up that bowhunters were on a decline and they had started a huge archery program to get people mostly kids in to archery. They even hired Denise who is in charge of the program.

 

Now this is were I get confused now they are saying there are to many bowhunters killing to many deer? Or am I not seeing it correctly? This was less than a year ago that all this went on with the range so I guess there new archery program must really be working.

 

I can kinda see were the rifle only guys think its a great idea for us to have to draw because they do. But at the same time do what I did years ago buy a bow and extend your season. What I don't get is how anyone knows the true numbers of deer killed and how many hunters are hunting in a particular unit when all they have is a half hearted flawed way of doing it. We can sit here and say there was to many hunters were I hunt and then talk to a guy in the same unit that never saw another hunter were he was hunting. I guess what I'm trying to say is how can they make a huge decision like this if they do not have true statistics on the number of hunters in a unit or deer harvest numbers! At the same time this could be the first step to get better statistics but I do not think its the answer.

I could be wrong and I'm sure someone will tell me if I am.

 

Well said, I could not agree MORE!

[JasCald02]

This is a huge thread, so the answer to this question might already be somewhere in all the text....but just curious if this will effect my plans on buying a Jan '08 OTC archery tag. Anyone know?

[DesertBull]

This is a huge thread, so the answer to this question might already be somewhere in all the text....but just curious if this will effect my plans on buying a Jan '08 OTC archery tag. Anyone know?

 

 

No, you should be good for Jan/08.

The earliest anything could change would for the early fall 08 season(s).

[Outdoor Writer]

"Our G&f went from managing game to managing hunters and with that we will all suffer until they come to their senses."

 

When hunters are one of the tools used to manage the game, you have to manage the hunters. Managing hunters (and all of their conflicting wants) is probably G&F's hardest job because no matter what G&F does somebody is going to be mad at them.

 

Arizona is facing a supply (deer) and demand (hunters wanting tags) issue and the demand is growing larger while the supply is not. The G&F will have to impose restrictions at some point and IMO it is better to do it before the deer population takes too big of a hit from overhunting. If they are going to go to a draw system I think they should just do it across the board. Then it would be like OutdoorWriter said, "ONE permit annually for ONE season with ONE weapon in ONE unit," which makes sense to me.

 

Too much common sense applied. -TONY

[Outdoor Writer]

Never said genes got better with age Tony. When a buck is a year and a half old he breaks from the doe's and moves to a different area (herd). This prevents inter-breeding, which in turn promots genetic diversity. If we shoot these yearlings they never have a chance to take thier genes to a different area and breed with different doe's, spreading thier genes and strengthening the deer herds. If we don't give these young deer an opportunity to spread thier genes it will weaken the herds by only allowing the same bucks to breed year after year. This not only effects the bucks but the doe's as well. You get the same bucks breeding all the doe's and you'll eventually have inter-breeding which leads to genetically weak animals. This is why they only shoot mature bucks on Texas ranches or infirior bucks to prevent them from spreading thier genes. This is also why Texas ranchers trade mature bucks to other ranches so they can diversify the gene pool. This is all basic biology and I would figure you'd know it Tony.

 

Donnie

 

Also I like you idea about the hunt structure, the only thing I'd do differently is to add a special draw for the rut and to allow those drawn for the oct. hunt to also hunt the early hunt with a bow. Then if they don't tag out with a bow they can use the same tag for the rifle hunt. Just like Wyoming does it. Whyoming has also been successful with point restrictions in certain areas. They know what they're doing.

 

 

That over-simplification of "genetic diversity" has NO basis in reality because it makes too many assumptions that do NOT occur in a WILD population of whitetail deer. What the deer farmers in Texas do is equivalent to producing test tube babies or sheep clones under controlled laboratory conditions.

 

Re: hunt structure

 

Nope, a guy gets a permit and one chance to fill his tag. No second chances. No do-overs. You make your choice and sleep with it -- successful or unsuccessful.

 

Re: point restrictions

 

See Largo's last reply in the Random Units Closing in AZ? thread on MM. He sure saved me a lot of typing. -TONY

[.270]

i hate to see more regulation. but to me, maybe the azgfd is finally looking at something other than the bottom line. archery deer has been pretty much unregulated for a long time and part of the reason is because they liked to sell all those extra tags and a lot of them are nonrez tags too. but i have felt for many years, that archery deer should be a draw. chose your tool and use it. don't know for sure if it's changed much, but when i lived in the u1 and 27 area the archery seasons were a joke. truck loads of jerks riding around in the bed and wounding every stupid spike and forkhorn that stood by the road. i quit bowhunting because i didn't want to be associated with the crap that went on. one camp i knew of, and i knew every jerk in the camp and about half of them were in law enforcement, had 12 guys with tags. they wounded 15 deer that weren't recovered. one guy killed one. and they all had rifle tags for other hunts. i know the wardens have been cracking down on road hunting arrow flingers, i won't call em hunters, but it still ain't right what was going on. i think it was one of several factors that led to the u1 deer herd dissapearing and the 27 deer really declining. others i know feel the same way about kaibab. game has to be managed. after the first road was built, game management had to take place. and game management is always woefully behind the need for it. i know i'll get labasted, what the heck, but i wish they would put a draw on all archery deer seasons, not just a limited number of units. Arizona only has so much water and we only get it when mother nature decides to let us have it, that is what limits the habitat to it's carrying capacities. and if you have a bunch of water one year, it doesn't make a bunch of deer that year. or the next or the next. you have to have sufficient water for years to increase the herd and the herd has to be managed. and it has to be managed at a state, county, hunt unit and specific area, level. you can't shotgun the state. some years back they put some new restrictions on bowhunting on the kaibab and folks threw a fit. but it's still open. it ain't hard to hunt there. don't know if it has made a difference yet, but something had to be done. i don't often agree with the azgfd. you guys know that. but i think this is can be a first step in the right direction on a very long road. hopefully good scientific data was used to make these decisions and not the bank account, like seems to have driven every decision they've made for the last 20 years. i hate more restrictions and i hate to see opportunity diminished, but there needs to be better bowhunt management on the Az. deer herd. i'll wait and see if it helps. now have at me. Lark.

[Rembrant]

OK Lark, you asked for it. Here it is: Thanks.

Mike

[azryan]

i hate to see more regulation. but to me, maybe the azgfd is finally looking at something other than the bottom line. archery deer has been pretty much unregulated for a long time and part of the reason is because they liked to sell all those extra tags and a lot of them are nonrez tags too. but i have felt for many years, that archery deer should be a draw. chose your tool and use it. don't know for sure if it's changed much, but when i lived in the u1 and 27 area the archery seasons were a joke. truck loads of jerks riding around in the bed and wounding every stupid spike and forkhorn that stood by the road. i quit bowhunting because i didn't want to be associated with the crap that went on. one camp i knew of, and i knew every jerk in the camp and about half of them were in law enforcement, had 12 guys with tags. they wounded 15 deer that weren't recovered. one guy killed one. and they all had rifle tags for other hunts. i know the wardens have been cracking down on road hunting arrow flingers, i won't call em hunters, but it still ain't right what was going on. i think it was one of several factors that led to the u1 deer herd dissapearing and the 27 deer really declining. others i know feel the same way about kaibab. game has to be managed. after the first road was built, game management had to take place. and game management is always woefully behind the need for it. i know i'll get labasted, what the heck, but i wish they would put a draw on all archery deer seasons, not just a limited number of units. Arizona only has so much water and we only get it when mother nature decides to let us have it, that is what limits the habitat to it's carrying capacities. and if you have a bunch of water one year, it doesn't make a bunch of deer that year. or the next or the next. you have to have sufficient water for years to increase the herd and the herd has to be managed. and it has to be managed at a state, county, hunt unit and specific area, level. you can't shotgun the state. some years back they put some new restrictions on bowhunting on the kaibab and folks threw a fit. but it's still open. it ain't hard to hunt there. don't know if it has made a difference yet, but something had to be done. i don't often agree with the azgfd. you guys know that. but i think this is can be a first step in the right direction on a very long road. hopefully good scientific data was used to make these decisions and not the bank account, like seems to have driven every decision they've made for the last 20 years. i hate more restrictions and i hate to see opportunity diminished, but there needs to be better bowhunt management on the Az. deer herd. i'll wait and see if it helps. now have at me. Lark.

 

 

thats the craziest thing I have ever heard... somebody had to say it.

I agree mostly with what you said. Especially on the part about these yahoo's who are demeaning our sport.

I hate driving down the road and see a bunch of people loaded up like illegals with bows in their hands driving roads. That has got to urk anyone on here.

My uncle a couple years back was driving down spring valley road when a quad drives by with his arrow nocked...thats ridicolous...everyone see's this....the locals hate it and so do I...people like that create such a bad name for us.

Last weekend was a joke too....I saw a family all dressed in camo...wife, boy, and little girl sitting in the back of a truck with the tailgate down...the boy had his bow ready to go if an oppurtunity presented itself....the dad should be ashamed of himself for teaching his son that.....Lark I agree with you for the most part...we need to start filtering out these yahoos...they are a joke to the hunting community

[Huntn coues]

How many times have you guy's seen road hunters using them loud noise makers (aka sissy boom sticks)?

Cuz I see them just about every time I go out . There just cruising around with there guns hanging out the windows,shooting at everything under the sun, wounding everything.......

 

We need to stop this crap "bow vs Gun". Its so easy to point our fingers at one another but what is needed is to turn those

losers in or maybe even educate them , you know like the kid in the back of the truck he has no clue what is the right way.

 

I know one thing for sure if I was to be driving to my evening hunting spot

and lets say I spot a 370 bull you bet your booty I am going to park my truck and try to put the sneak on him whether he

is 300 yards out or 1/2 mile out. But if I was a gun hunter then I could just blast em right out of the window and

not even get out of the vehicle.

 

But the bottom line is there is more and more taken from us each year and all we can do is bellyache about it.

[Non-Typical Solutions]

Times are changing, and although it may be hard to swallow we have to either support the system or get involved with changing the system I like what you had to say Mr. .270.

[jim]

270 I said the same thing on here a couple years ago and got trashed. For all the guys that say there are plenty of deer all you have to do is get off the road is that I have seen the day when you could drive the rim road and see 100 to 200 deer a day. You can not convince me those deer just hide behind the trees now. This population is need of help and if it's an archery draw that helps so be it. I for one will continue to hunt archery whether I have to draw or not. I don't think the whitetails are suffering near as bad as the mulies but I don't hunt down south that much. I know the northern units that I hunt still have good whitetail pops but how long will that last as hunting pressure shifts towards whitetails.

[Non-Typical Solutions]

And the pressure will shift. I still say 1500 rifle tags in 36B has to be too many, it isn't just an archery problem, it's like it was said earlier, it is deer population versus growing hunter population. Gotta tighten up the belt somewhere and it probably should be addressed in both methods of hunting.

[bobbyo]

How many times have you guy's seen road hunters using them loud noise makers (aka sissy boom sticks)?

Cuz I see them just about every time I go out . There just cruising around with there guns hanging out the windows,shooting at everything under the sun, wounding everything.......

 

We need to stop this crap "bow vs Gun". Its so easy to point our fingers at one another but what is needed is to turn those

losers in or maybe even educate them , you know like the kid in the back of the truck he has no clue what is the right way.

 

I know one thing for sure if I was to be driving to my evening hunting spot

and lets say I spot a 370 bull you bet your booty I am going to park my truck and try to put the sneak on him whether he

is 300 yards out or 1/2 mile out. But if I was a gun hunter then I could just blast em right out of the window and

not even get out of the vehicle.

 

But the bottom line is there is more and more taken from us each year and all we can do is bellyache about it.

 

 

Thanks for saying it for me. Any unethical thing you can do with a bow can be done with a rifle.

Bob

[Outdoor Writer]

But if I was a gun hunter then I could just blast em right out of the window and

not even get out of the vehicle.

 

But the bottom line is there is more and more taken from us each year and all we can do is bellyache about it.

 

No, don't think so. That has already been addressed, thus someone had already decided that taking game from a vehicle is indeed unethical. Thus, it is already illegal. It doesn't matter whether it is a bow or a gun. It's apparent quite a few here are not up to snuff on the current regulations. See below. -TONY

 

A.R.S. 17-301

Times when wildlife may be taken; exceptions;

methods of taking

A. A person may take wildlife, except aquatic wildlife, only

during daylight hours unless otherwise prescribed by

the commission. A person shall not take any species of

wildlife by the aid or with the use of a jacklight, other

artificial light, or illegal device, except as provided by the

commission.

B. A person shall not take wildlife, except aquatic wildlife,

or discharge a firearm or shoot any other device from

a motor vehicle, including an automobile, aircraft, train

or powerboat, or from a sailboat, boat under sail, or a

floating object towed by powerboat or sailboat except

as expressly permitted by the commission. No person

may knowingly discharge any firearm or shoot any other

device upon, from, across or into a road or railway.