Point Guard

[trphyhntr]

good thing my dad has enough antelope points to help get drawn for any archery hunt. Then turn his points back in and continue trying for rifle. Sure we can only do it once but now I can get any antelope archery unit.

 

 

The point creep is gonna be crazy lol

[Swivelhead]

Assuming permit surrender stays as presented, the only way I see it NOT triggering point accumulation/sharing schemes would be to limit surrender to individual applicants. i. e. Point Guard only available for applications with one applicant. Could be G&F is "banking" on these schemes to increase revenue. Disposition of surrendered permits will be interesting. Hope G&F does the right thing and offers the permit to "next in line".

[krp]

My first elk tag was archery in '84. Back then it was all the units from 27 around to 4A. I hadn't even seen a live elk before except some cows eating on the road around Forest Lakes once driving by. Though I used to drive up to Woods canyon to fish, throw a bag on the ground to sleep. right on the rim where the 300 road turns, and have loud, weird birds wake me up in the mornings. Didn't know it was elk until an old hunter brought a bugle to deer camp. Back then a bugle was a piece of looped sink pipe, blow in it and it ran the scale up and down.

 

I had been chasing deer in the desert around Mesa with an old bow, never got close enough for a shot. Late archery season started thanksgiving and then the new year after. Any deer, either sex, seemed if I was quail hunting the deer were in easy bow range and if I was bow hunting they weren't and quail running around my feet... of course.

 

Anyway my brother's BIL came down from Washington state to help pour concrete with us. He had stories of shooting elk with a bow, helped me improve that old bow of mine and it gave me the bug.

 

After drawing that first tag I bought a new bow, Golden Eagle, because that's what he shot, got set up and practiced all summer. Hunted around Woods Canyon and Forest lakes. Always in elk, blew some stalks and had a big bull at 20 yards broadside that I shot over his back. It was the most exciting, humbling, disappointing, self blaming and best hunt I had ever experienced.

 

I didn't put in for archery again till '89. 3C, had to choose a unit by then. More action, more exciting, bigger disappointments,more self blame. Shot a large bull quartering at me some and caught the platter bone. I was beat myself up on how dumb I was hunting elk with a bow.

 

'91, killed a 350+ herd bull in the same spot... had my broadhead and couple inches of shaft still stuck in his shoulder.

 

'96, '97 drew 3C, odds were still around 25%, my buddies were putting in with me by then so we had 3 tags every year. We killed decent bulls both years.

 

I have drawn 4B a couple times and 23 november as second choice by myself.

 

Every year I've went on someone else's hunt in 3C or 23 except a couple. Hunted the rez raghorn/cow, helped on youth cow tags.

 

Then I decided I wanted one more 3C rut tag, back then it was 12 BPs to draw in the 20% pass... now it's 11. I had 11 this year but decided to wait for next year. Last year it started on the 11th and was hotter than I've ever experienced, lows at high 50s. Elk were killable but I'm wanting the experience again. This year it starts on the 9th, next on the 15th. In my experience the action and sounds in the woods change around the 18th... I want more than five days of that action.

 

I won't ever wait for a rut hunt again, I actually like the archery 23 november hunt.

 

Anyway I have 12 points because the hunt started on the 9th this year. Now I have to decide if I'm going to finish my plan... or think of my granddaughter and get her a late 23 rifle hunt where it's not difficult to kill a nice 300ish bull. Then have 19 points to pull the 3C archery, or possibly early rifle depending on 20% pass or a 23 early archery.

 

It's almost a waste of my long waited for points to use them just for me... now

 

Except someone gets screwed out of a 23 rifle tag that I don't want. Next in line seldom would be who would have drawn given 2nd choice draws. Especially Dec coues tags and mule deer tags.

 

Kent

[krp]

And another obvious I've been waiting for others to see on their own. Two tags will be pulled out of the 20% pass that wouldn't have. And one returned. Two people get screwed.

 

Kent

[Redman]

Maybe after a year or two after a bunch of tags are surrendered modifications will be made.....

 

There are two thought processes:

 

1) hope those that surrender a tag do it early so another person can use it.(maybe me)...

 

2). surrender the tag late so nobody gets to use it and no extra revenue for the G&F..

[krp]

Hey Andy, I'm going to hyjack my own thread... here's a bull moving back and forth between cows last year, real close to where you killed yours. Thought you'd get a kick out of it.

 

They wren't bugling and I couldn't convince my buddy who had a tag to go down in and hunt, he wanted to sit water. I said fine, I'll show you there are elk there... 1/4 mile from where he was sitting.

 

http://s289.photobucket.com/user/kentpowellp/media/videos/MVI_0827_zpsscisk0w7.mp4.html?sort=3&o=1

[Redman]

Hey Andy, I'm going to hyjack my own thread... here's a bull moving back and forth between cows last year, real close to where you killed yours. Thought you'd get a kick out of it.

 

They wren't bugling and I couldn't convince my buddy who had a tag to go down in and hunt, he wanted to sit water. I said fine, I'll show you there are elk there... 1/4 mile from where he was sitting.

 

http://s289.photobucket.com/user/kentpowellp/media/videos/MVI_0827_zpsscisk0w7.mp4.html?sort=3&o=1

 

 

Hey Kent,

 

Thanks I did get a kick out of it. Not sure why anybody wouldn't listen to you..... you know that unit like the back of your hand.

 

My two boys got a unit 22N bull late rifle bull.... (12 and 19) goona be fun.

[krp]

Cool beans on your son's tags, good times for sure.

 

Kent

[tjhunt2]

Say I have 20 bonus points for antelope. Someone with 2pts ask me if I would let him put in with me for $1500 which now gives him 11 bonus points. I let him pick his unit of choice and we draw a tag. It's not the unit I want so I surrender my tag and the department restores all my accumulated bonus points including the bonus point the application would have accured if not drawn. I'm out my application fee of $103 + $5 PointGuard, but minus that from the $1500 he paid me, and now I have all my bonus, 21, points back and $1392 in my pocket to go hunt antelope in Wyoming. It can't be that easy right? If this is the case we can now sell our points to the highest bidder?

 

TJ

[rossislider]

Say I have 20 bonus points for antelope. Someone with 2pts ask me if I would let him put in with me for $1500 which now gives him 11 bonus points. I let him pick his unit of choice and we draw a tag. It's not the unit I want so I surrender my tag and the department restores all my accumulated bonus points including the bonus point the application would have accured if not drawn. I'm out my application fee of $103 + $5 PointGuard, but minus that from the $1500 he paid me, and now I have all my bonus, 21, points back and $1392 in my pocket to go hunt antelope in Wyoming. It can't be that easy right? If this is the case we can now sell our points to the highest bidder?

 

TJ

Exactly, anyone with 15+ points looking to make $1500 on next season's elk hunt draw should PM me.....

[Str8Shot]

Say I have 20 bonus points for antelope. Someone with 2pts ask me if I would let him put in with me for $1500 which now gives him 11 bonus points. I let him pick his unit of choice and we draw a tag. It's not the unit I want so I surrender my tag and the department restores all my accumulated bonus points including the bonus point the application would have accured if not drawn. I'm out my application fee of $103 + $5 PointGuard, but minus that from the $1500 he paid me, and now I have all my bonus, 21, points back and $1392 in my pocket to go hunt antelope in Wyoming. It can't be that easy right? If this is the case we can now sell our points to the highest bidder?

 

TJ

Nailed it on the Head ... People have been Using Non Hunting Pools with Spouse and Grand Parents in order to transfer tags to Hunting Minors for years ... Now they create a system that with 4 or 5 individuals you can not only increase your own odds every year in just a matter of a few years, but also being able to profit from it all so they can get the extra revenue.

 

I have known 5 people my entire life that had a medical issue that made it impossible for them to hunt... 2 of them were Premium Bull tags that cost them significant Bonus points ... All Donated to non profits and all were very happy in what they had done for another... 1 was a little bummed at losing his bonus points.

 

Those that like this are going to be the ones who put in for numerous out of state hunts as well as individual in state hunts with multiple family members and most likely the majority of tags surrendered will not be do to a medical reason keeping them from hunting.. Do you really think these individuals are going to surrender tags in a Timely fashion in order to allow G&F the time to see it go into any other hand but the non profits ? I doubt it. Even if they did How is G&F going to get the Tag to the guy that would have been rightfully next in line, what if that guy who just missed that tag in the bonus round ended up with a 3rd choice tag ... and the guy that might have gotten that 3rd choice tag got nothing ... Like KRP said this affects every phase of the draw and when people start cheating the system due to greed versus necessity multiple applicants will lose opportunity...

 

Seems pretty simple to fix ... Allow only on single applicant applications the ability to surrender... require tag surrender no less than 30 days prior to hunt unless a medical emergency, in which a Doctors note could substantiate the need for surrender if after the deadline, but before the start of the Hunt.

 

shoot Happens , I have seen a guy break his ankle hiking out 2 hours prior to first shooting light on opening day. Not like this would have benefitted him.

[Heat]

Another solution I saw elsewhere, that I kinda like, is no more averaging of Bonus Points. Multi-party apps default to lowest point holder's status. That'll fix this in a jiffy, but will punish those that might want to draw and hunt together without similar point numbers.

[krp]

There's an endless different ways to use this for family and friends or yourself.

 

Getting paid will most likely come from NRs.

 

Typical deal will be like this... USO has hundreds of clients they apply for then guide, they flood units their clients that they like to guide in. They have a large camp for unit 10 late rifle of who they get through that year. 500 tags, 100 tags in the 20%, 25 can go to NRs.

 

Unit 10 20% pass goes to 5 BPs, guaranteed at 6 for residents and probably bottoms out at 8BPs for NRs with the new restrictions.

 

A NR has 4 points, if he can put in with a 11 or 12 he gets to 8. That's worth more than 1500.00 to not wait and leapfrog.

 

It's the 20% pass that will be effected most and soon those numbers with go up.

 

Coues dec tags will be effected because many take 5 BPs to draw in the 20% pass but usually only have 8 to 10 tags in that draw. It could come to half those tags given back and many more BPs to get in the 20%.

 

Kent

[HuntHarder]

Does anyone know if Colorado and Utah have similar draw systems as we do? They have had the free tag surrender for a few years now, and If it is like you guys say it will be, I am looking for a guy to piggy back on. I searched online, but can not find any "points for sale"

[krp]

No one has our point or draw system, that's the difference.

 

NRs would benefit the most offering money.

 

Using family and friends more likely.

 

Kent